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Does anyone have, or can link me to, PDF copies of old, out of print flamenco guitar tutors? The earlier the better. I'm curious about the development of flamenco guitar teaching.
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
I have Metodo de Guitarra by Rafael Morales, Granada, 1970. I do not remember how I came by it, nor do I remember ever using it
I have also found Manuel Granados, "Pedagogia para guitarra flamenco: cantes libres" 1993, Claude Worms, "Duende flamenco, v2a, la bulería", and Ray Mitchell "Anthology of flamenco falsetas" 1982.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
If you have read the other threads about Marin's method here on the Foro, you will have seen that well informed people think it doesn't have as much value in showing how flamenco was actually taught, as it does as a document reflecting attitudes toward flamenco and its understanding among non-flamenco musicians.
In the 1960s I took a few lessons from the house guitarist of a bar in Triana. I don't remember the name of the bar, but the guitarist was called Joselero. He was in his sixties at the time. I think the lessons followed the traditional format.
The teacher might say a few words of introduction about the palo, then play a falseta, first up to tempo, then slowly. The student, guitar in hand, was expected to pick up the notes and rhythm, but perhaps not be able to play up to speed. At the next lesson the student was expected to play the falseta at the proper tempo. The teacher would advise, then play another falseta for the student to learn, etc. Joselero was a stickler for compas, if I messed up he would stick his fingers in his ears and bellow, "¡Si toca´ fuera de compas, no oigo na´!"
In the 1950s and later in the USA, the Englishman Edward Freeman, who had learned flamenco in Spain, followed a similar pattern. Ed was afflicted with arthritis, so sometimes he couldn't play the falseta up to speed. If so, he would clap the compas at the correct tempo and vocalize. Another deviation from the traditional pattern was that Ed was a literate musician and expected his students to read standard notation. At each lesson the student was supplied with a written score of the falseta.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Since the previous post I have read about half of "Niño Ricardo, Vida y Obra de Manuel Serrapi Sanchez" by Eusebio Rioja and Norberto Torres. The book is is two parts, the first half is biographical, the second is a series of analyses of recordings. The cante accompaniment recordings referred to are in a published collection, no longer available. This has slowed me down a good deal.
The point of this post is that the authors say Rafael Marin was a very influential figure in the toque of the early 20th century. They devote a considerable amount of space to him, and to his teaching of a variety of guitarists. While not a student of Marin, Ramon Montoya is cited as one who was influenced by him, adding a great deal of classical influence to his toque.
Many of the leading guitarists of the day hung out at the shop of Manuel Ramirez, including Marin, Montoya, the classical players Llobet, Manjon, and others. In the days when I hung out with guitarists from other genres, there was considerable cross-fertilization of technique and musical content. I'm sure it was the same at Ramirez's shop.
Rioja and Torres consider Marin to have been a significant influence on the direction of toque in the early 20th century. If I get around to it I'll post a link to some fairly long quotes from their book.
At the moment it's time to go get my car inspected....
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
Good posts, Richard. I imagine some people did not like Marin's mixing together flamenco and classical ideas, but clearly many did. It reminds me of Paco de Lucia's forays into jazz. To some it's is a development, to others something "non puro".
I wish I had been in Ramirez's workshop when they were all hanging out together!
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop
Good posts, Richard. I imagine some people did not like Marin's mixing together flamenco and classical ideas, but clearly many did. It reminds me of Paco de Lucia's forays into jazz. To some it's is a development, to others something "non puro".
Back then that mixing was what it was all about. Flamenco players were into classical music, and classical guitarists were into flamenco. It was really Mr. Segovia that wanted to separate what HE did from his other paisanos, almost making it like a "class" issue of what type of music you play. Thank god Paco came along to put things back together for the Spanish guitar. But there will always be purist snobs to keep things in perspective.
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From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
It was really Mr. Segovia that wanted to separate what HE did from his other paisanos
He wasn’t the only one. What Yepes (for example) said about Lucía’s performance of Aranjuez seemed to me quite venomous; it would have been sufficient to say simply that he didn’t like it.
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop
Oh, what did he say?
Narciso Yepes, el guitarrista que hizo universalmente famoso el “Concierto de Aranjuéz”, de D. Joaquín Rodrigo, se muestra escandalizado por la reciente versión que ha grabado el guitarrista flamenco Paco de Lucía.
-Acabo de escucharlo ¡Es terrible! No se puede soportar.
Paco de Lucía, que és un guitarrista flamenco fenomenal, no tiene técnica para tocar ese concierto. Es un sonido tan horrible, tan feo, tan pequeñito, tan fuera de lugar, que es una lástima que se lo hayan hecho estudiar. Una verdadera pena.
-¿Usted cree que no hay que hacer versiones por guitarristas flamencos o trompetistas de jazz?
-Si el resultado fuera bueno, ¿por qué no? Pero no lo és. Si Paco de Lucía no fuese tan conocido como guitarrista flamenco, ese concierto no habría salido a la luz.
Lo escuché el jueves pasado y no me lo podía creer. Me encantaría que Paco de Lucía hubiera hecho una versión magnífica, pero no la puede hacer, es imposible. Un estudiante de escuela de música lo haría mejor.
-¿Tendría que haber hecho una versión, en vez del concierto tal cual?
-No tendría que haber hecho ninguna versión, como no tenía que haber, hecho otro disco, el de Manuel de Falla. A un hombre, como Falla, que se pasaba dos meses para decidir si, ponía o no un Fa sostenido; que era de una exigencia y de una pureza como músico, como creador, que llegue un Paco de Lucía y quite esto de aquí, ponga eso allá...¡Es increible!
Es como si decimos que eso que se canta ahora en las iglesias, y que llaman “Canto a la alegría”, tiene algo que ver con la “Novena Sinfonía” de Beethoven. Es lo mismo que le pasa al “Concierto de Aranjuéz” de Paco de Lucía: que no tiene nada que ver con el “Concierto de Aranjuéz”.
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Didn't Joaquin Rodrigo like Paco's interpretation best?? How can anyone criticize when the writer of the piece says "yep, that's the one!"
It may have been Rodrigo's preference for Paco's version that prompted Narciso Yepes' criticism. It is not unknown for musicians and artists to be high-strung prima donnas. (I love one definition: "a very temperamental person with an inflated view of their own talent or importance.") Segovia was neither the first nor the last. Yepes may have been stung by Rodrigo bypassing him in favor of Paco, and it was his way of striking back, childish though it was. It's the old tactic of attempting to inflate one's own ability by criticizing that of a perceived rival.
On the other hand, psychoanalyzing aside, it may be a simple example of a classical guitarist looking down on a flamenco guitarist as not quite measuring up; an illustration of Ricardo's observation that "there will always be purist snobs to keep things in perspective."
Bill
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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
OK, I read that with the help of Google Translate. Thanks to Fred.
I kind of get what he is saying, which does not at all mean I agree with him. He has spent his life digging deep into the classical aesthetic, and found it hard to accept another interpretation. On the one hand that is a blinkered view, on the other it's a profound commitment to his own interpretation. We should believe in what we are doing.
But, yes, he could have been more gracious.
Remember, classical guitarists very often get criticised by flamenco guitarists for either bending the pulse too much, or doing terrible rasgueados, and a few other sins.
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From: Washington, DC
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
quote:
Remember, classical guitarists very often get criticised by flamenco guitarists for either bending the pulse too much, or doing terrible rasgueados, and a few other sins.
Maybe it's all a question of specialization and a commitment to one's "guild." If many classical and flamenco guitarists view their respective specialties as a sort of "guild" in the old medieval sense, then if you haven't gone through the apprenticeship of one or the other, you have no business attempting play it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop
OK, I read that with the help of Google Translate. Thanks to Fred.
I kind of get what he is saying, which does not at all mean I agree with him. He has spent his life digging deep into the classical aesthetic, and found it hard to accept another interpretation. On the one hand that is a blinkered view, on the other it's a profound commitment to his own interpretation. We should believe in what we are doing.
But, yes, he could have been more gracious.
Remember, classical guitarists very often get criticised by flamenco guitarists for either bending the pulse too much, or doing terrible rasgueados, and a few other sins.
Most flamenco players don't waste time criticizing other stylists publicly. I was honestly surprised to hear PDL admitting about the concierto in LIGHT and SHADE that the other versions he heard (all classical guitarists) they tending to slow down in tough spots. He considered it NOT artistic Liberty but rather musical MISTAKES belng made. One could argue this to be the case for other pieces too, but PDL left it with this statement. I found that to be both inspiring and intimidating, as every guitars student knows that rhythm can be challenging to maintain when we face our own limitations. I believe PDL probably didn't say this publicly until after the criticism he received publicly as well, but I don't know. He could have said the same thing regarding Falla and other recordings of other wise "classical" music, but never lowered to that. He always maintened he wanted to make it "flamenco", that's all.
I will say, while in college I was learning Concierto and listened to several examples including Pacos. I was not aware of Yepes comments at the time, but found HIS version to be unlistenable. He sounds as a beginner student struggling by the seat of his pants. Another version I had, sigmund Behrund had a brittle tone. J. Williams had good beat and feel but simplified many things Too much IMO. Bream was much better than Yepes but still.....I ended up making my own version after I realized how much people were changing the original score to suite their needs. I certainly could not play as fast a PDL, but it was inspiring to hear it actually played in tempo! :). I also preferred this flamenco tone, and I thing THAT is what got the attention of Rodrigo more than anything, as he called PDL version "EXOTIC", not "the best"...far as I know. I think Rodrigo always like Romero or Parkening best. I also saw Barrueco do it, not bad but kind of stiff. I still prefer PDL and Williams to this day. Yepes comments don't surprise me at all, and quite frankly I dont' know why anyone else would either when hear his playing level.
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Ricardo)
Back when Segovia was still around and making nasty comments about flamenco, a lot of flamencos responded by putting down classical, including criticizing Segovia's technique.
In Austin at least this era seems to have passed. The Austin Classical Guitar Society, perhaps the largest and most active in the world, has put on Tomatito, Niño de Pura and Vicente Amigo, as well as one of the best series of classical concerts anywhere. Grisha has played here at least three times, and is on the schedule for next February.
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
While we are on the subject of the Aranjuez, I can say I performed it three times - twice as a student at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music, and once with an amateur orchestra, some 25 years ago. All three were scary experiences - it's not an easy piece, and in retrospect (and I kind of knew it at the time) I wasn't quite up to the job.
The performance with the amateur orchestra was the scariest. I can only assume it was difficult for them also. There were two stand-out bits, and not for good reasons. When I started the last movement, which is just solo guitar for 16 bars or so, the octogenarian principal cellist started tuning her cello quite loudly, having not heard me - despite my being amplified. She made loud tuning noises all the way through my intro, and then nearly had a heart attack when the rest of the orchestra came piling in. LOL. The other moment was also in the last movement (the most difficult) when the guitar plays a phrase, and the trumpet echoes it. This happens twice. Or, rather, it didn't. The trumpet player had not learned his part (and was absent from the rehearsals) and when it cam to his moment, he actually hid behind his music stand. My friends, also students of guitar, were rolling around laughing.
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
Thanks for posting that interview FredGuitarraOle.
To be honest though, no matter what his value was as a musician, I don't put much stock in the words of someone who claimed to have composed himself a piece that was recorded by others at least 30 years before he was born (Romance), most likely just to get the copyrights and the cash that goes with it. I hold him in about the same esteem as I do the man, who shall remain nameless, who flooded the internet with his sped-up picado vids in a boorish attempt to come off as something he is not.
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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
You caught me red-handed. I tried to pass-off as courtesy what was just forgetfulness on my part. For the life of me I can't remember that guy's name (of course, I couldn't be bothered to go look him up either). The sped-up picado video is seared into my mind though. It came at a time when I really needed a good laugh, and he provided, very much despite himself, the perfect opportunity for it.
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From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Many of you may know that the highly respected luthier and scholar of the guitar Richard Bruné reads the Foro, at least at times. His interest is not purely academic--he played professionally at Manolo Caracol's Mexico City tablao, "El Rincon de Goya."
Though Richard doesn't post on the Foro, he writes to some of the members, making significant contributions. Here's one:
"Hi Richard,
Saw the recent thread re historical methods for flamenco, which seems to have drifted into the realm of the usual "classical" vs "flamenco" dichotomy, thought I would weigh in on an observation. To begin, the term "classical" guitar (in any language translation) does not commonly appear until WW II and after. The earliest we have found this specific term comes from one of the Rio de la Plata area's guitar magazines from around the mid 1930's in which this term first appears in Spanish referring to the "guitarra classica" and the context is not exactly clear it is being used to distinguish a genre (as used commonly today) vs simply referring the the "classic" guitar of time immemorial. As you know, the term "classical" when applied to music has several distinct meanings ranging from referring to the music of the defined Classical era (Hayden, Mozart, etc) to its more recent iteration in which any kind of "high brow" art music is referred to as "classical," including baroque, renaissance, Alban Berg, etc. Most radio stations that still broadcast this kind of music call themselves "classical" stations as an example, and that is the vernacular usage of the term.
My point is, back in the day of Rafael Marín (and before,) this distinction of "classical" guitar as we commonly use and understand it today DID NOT EXIST, so trying to separate players into these categories is neither correct nor helpful in understanding the context of their lives and art. It was a non-distinction. As I point out in my "Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar" paper, in Torres' day there existed a continuum of players from very literate to completely illiterate, and it was very common for players to include many genres of music on their solo programs, from transcriptions of opera arias to flamenco palos of their own composition. Julian Arcas was one case in point, and even the so called "first" documented flamenco guitarist, Francisco Rodriguez "El Murciano" published 24 variations on the Malagueñas palo through J. Castro y Campos (an Aguado student) which were edited by José Juzenga Castellanos. I'll go out on a limb here and propose that these might be considered evidence that "El Murciano" was a literate guitarist. On the other hand, Sabicas, who I knew very well (he played one of my guitars) was totally illiterate when it came to written music, yet on Elektra Vol II he has recorded his transcription of Rimsky Korsakov's "Capricho Español," along with his variations of the Arcas/Tárrega "Gran Jota," Monti's "Czardas," and Leucona's "Malagueña," along with other original compositions of his own, and they ARE "compositions," not improvised falsetas run together, so in a way, they are as much "classical" music as any written down composition might be.
The fact that Marín's method of 1902 is written out in both music and cifra indicates that musical literacy was an optional skill regardless of the musical skill of the player, so trying to define players of that era by their level of musical literacy is folly. As for the restrictive labeling of genres, this is completely useless from a musicological point, since these distinctions simply did not exist prior to WW II. Richard Marlow got it right when he pointed out this was something adopted by Segovia and his boosters to distinguish himself from the many other "Spanish" guitarists who were competing for halls and gigs in front of a developing North American audience. By extension, the distinction between guitars intended for "classical" vs flamenco did not begin to develop until after WW II, as I point out in the COotMG paper. Before WW II, Spanish makers simply made guitars, it was up to the players (literate or not) to decide how best to use them.
For those skeptical of this opinion I request a search of ORIGINAL references in print (any language) prior to WW II that would support this use of the term "Classical guitar." Maker's catalogs, guitar magazines, correspondence (published or unpublished), record/wax cylinder labels, program notes, program advertisements, etc, anything you can find to refute my contention is welcome.
You can use this on the forum or not as you may prefer, its an interesting discussion that merits further depth.
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From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Here's the part of my reply to Bruné which is relevant to the thread:
"Thanks, Richard. My excuse is that I was reporting what Riojas and Torres wrote, but in fact I had fallen for the false dichotomy. Your message is certainly germane to the discussion started by MacKillop, and to the earlier comments by Marlow et al.
Still I find a distinction between the early 20th-century flamenco players' style of mainly pulgar and rasgueado, with a relatively limited harmonic palette, and for example the disciples of Tarrega in the same time period. Are there some terms you might use to distinguish them, or do you see them just as the extremes of an indivisible spectrum?
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
And here is Brune's reply:
"Hi Richard,
It was not my intention to castigate anyone for using these terms. Today there is no one alive who would remember far enough back to the period when the term came into usage, and so it has come to be the term of choice to distinguish non-flamenco players from those who also play flamenco. Unfortunately this division has created a kind of apartheid in the guitar world which is neither helpful nor totally accurate, and certainly when it comes to investigating and assessing our historical past, it is a huge artificial impediment to gathering the full picture and information necessary to completely understand our instrument and its roots. In many books covering the history of the guitar, the flamenco aspect has been marginalized if not totally omitted. None of the writers or professors who have covered this subject have gone into the guitarreros shops and recorded oral histories of their clientele to include as part of this.
With Spanish writers, today it is de riguer to downplay and marginalize the gypsy origins of flamenco, and by extension, the birth of the modern guitar through Torres, so no surprise that Rioja has adopted this terminology and attitude, along with nearly every other Spanish writer today. Its even in Romanillos' book, where he states that "Torres applied the improvements he made to the classical guitar to his flamenco models." Of course there are players of varying degrees of skill, and even with simple thumb and finger techniques, some guitarists can achieve astounding affects. And yet with all the post doctoral training even the greatest classical players cannot effectively effectively step into a simple flamenco performance and accompany a simple soleá effectively, or even at all, so from a musicologist standpoint, any inferences of superiority of one genre over the other are irrelevant
Yet the Spanish prejudice against gypsy culture has been and still is very deep and pervasive. I have several of the directories of Sevilla published during Torres' time which lists all residents and their professions. Conspicuously absent are the names of just about every guitarrero working there, along with nearly every famous cantaor and bailaor who were active in Sevilla during the 19th century.
Since WW II, beginning outside of Spain (principally in the USA), and then later Europe, and finally beginning around the 1960's or so in Spain, you begin to see this term "classical guitar" come into common usage. I think it took root in Spain because so many foreigners were coming to Spain to buy guitars and asking for "classical" guitars, so the makers sold them what the wanted: "classical" guitars. Ramirez III was one of the first to actually make two distinctive models, each aimed at different markets, and each with entirely different internal design, along with differing materials.
So my goal with my original email was to open a dialogue and also set many eyes on the investigation path to look at old original sources to find and try to pinpoint precisely when and where this term "classical guitar" actually first appeared. I thought the flamenco foro would be a more open minded venue than the other "classical" guitar forums which by definition are limited to what we today narrowly define as "classical" guitar.
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
All very interesting! To be fair to classical guitarists and luthiers, Marin's Method does seem the first (correct me if I am wrong) to make a distinct reference to a flamenco style, by using the word Flamenco on the cover. He presumably saw a distinction with non-flamenco guitar. I'm working on the music in the book now, and intend to record some pieces and exercises from it when my Stephen Faulke guitar after Santos Hernandez arrives next week - gut strings at the ready!
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop)
Ive always heared the flamenco specific guitar was a biproduct and combination of local(therefor cheaper) woods for the gypsies and adjustments needed to cut through the party.
RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Richard - in a word, no. In more words: I'll be more in the Julian Arcas camp. We know he was a flesh player, and that he played soleá, boleros, etc. I'd be interested in finding out if any flamenco players played without nails. It's hard to imagine someone doing that today, but things were freer in the late 19th century, which is where I place Marin's book, despite it being published in 1902. Marin mentions very short nails, but does include a soleá by Arcas...
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