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Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to BarkellWH)
interesting proposition ... but ... i can get thrown out of bars on my own now ... and i already done some online searching to find a bar called McFadden's...suppose to be the worst bar in DC area ...thats for me .... i mean anyone can get thrown out of the Round Robin, just for talking too loud .. not wearing a tie .. etc ... but I want to go for a higher level ... thrown out of a bar with broken bottles on the floor and nightly knife attacks etc.....I mean whatdo yer think ill be spending my kickstart money on ..?/
and .........as you said ... .. "Why should I work and save if I can talk others into paying for me?" ....
Genius ... pure genius ... why didnt I think of that ?? wouldnt the world be a much better place for us all if it were more like that .... I would love to visit Japan and have a few Koto lessons and visit a Geisha house ... and now i am forming a plan how to do just that .... lets see what else i could do for free ..... you guys all got plenty of money right ..??/
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to El Kiko)
Presumptuous sure but he had the right idea. If you wanna learn proper you gotta go to the fuente potable. Outside of Spain flamenco is taught so bass ackwards. I feel like I wasted years trying to learn solo crap when I should've just been learning what a simple solea melody is......I found the right teacher at the wrong time and work took over my life.....and still does.....but at least now I know what to aim at. Cante cante cante......
Some of the replies on this thread are appalling. So ashamed to see a new member looking for support in learning flamenco being treated like this.
To be fair, it is kind of touchy subject isn't it? I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what a kickstarter really is and whether there's something to it or whether it's just a scam... It's really hard to tell. Don't you think at the very least that this thread should be in the "classified" sections and not in "general"? A lot of my skepticism vis-à-vis these requests would probably vanish if these were presented as honest sales offering and not as something they're not... Anyways, best of luck to the OP in learning flamenco.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 2882
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Piwin)
Kickstarter is totally legit. not a scam. It's part of this modern movement of crowdfunding. I think its great. Some fanatstic projects have and are being crowdfunded. its people launching products, films, art etc etc. and they dont all have to be for worthy causes....(charity and such) infact most aren't.
You pledge money and help someone get a project off the ground. modern day philanthropy. and no some projects don't guarantee any returns. hard concept to grasp in this strange time we live. (what? I give you money with no chance of recouping more money than I gave?!?!?)
Maybe some people are using kickstarter in a dubious fashion but on the whole its people trying to get **** done and make a difference in some way.
PS I'm currently running a kickstarter! :) with my mrs. We're producing a film and raising some of the funding through kickstarter!
Hey Jero! whats up man, didn't know you were on here. I agree. some pretty harsh replies there but it does just sound like he wants people to fund his trip of a lifetime!!! fair play to the guy for trying. He was also offering 'Rewards' which is a crowdfund staple. but his rewards might be like trying to sell sand to the arabs
I can understand why folk feel a bit miffed by that... but I agree ripping him to shreds is a little dark... couldve just said it straight.
Mark I reckon you need to have a clearer destination. something like....you're gonna write a book about your travels and encounters with flamenco in Andalucia. So then you're funding a book....not just a holiday... then one of your rewards would be a 1st edition copy of the book or something
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Kickstarter is totally legit. not a scam. It's part of this modern movement of crowdfunding. I think its great. Some fanatstic projects have and are being crowdfunded. its people launching products, films, art etc etc. and they dont all have to be for worthy causes....(charity and such) infact most aren't.
Yeah I get that. And I'm not trying to denigrate the whole idea of crowdfunding. Not at all. My main issue is that it seemingly blurs the line between business and regular interaction. Again, this thread is in the "general" section even if it's clearly an advertisement for something being sold... A weird aspect of it is that often people present their crowdfunding projects by saying "be part of our story" etc. etc. But they're total strangers to me. This came up not too long ago with that video where the guy was asking for a free guitar. He could be legit, and some people who seem to have known him did vouch for him, but I'd never heard of him and was therefore rather skeptical. I've participated in some crowdfunding projects before, but always on a more specific project and with people that I knew much better.
To me, it's part of a more general trend where brands have come up with this whole "storytelling" approach to selling stuff. Like I'm not buying a pair of shoes, I'm buying the lifestyle and story that goes with it, etc. etc. I just don't understand that. I go by the saying "Aunque la mona se vista de seda, mona se queda". It's still just a business transaction, nothing modern about it, except perhaps the polish we put on it. But I do wish him best of luck with his trip to Spain. I will say this just for what it's worth: I've found that working here in the local economy (and not just off the internet) has been a worthwhile way of becoming part of the community here. Last time I was here, I just went to the pena and took some classes here and there and the "tourist" label kind of stuck because of it. This time it's been very different. Perhaps, the OP is also working and the kickstarter is just an added boost, just thought i'd mention this for anyone wondering. Anyways...
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Stu)
Well. I have been living in Andalucía since 1998. I fund myself, with little money. However, I have personally funded recordings for two historically important cantaores and a group of flamenco villancicos which is still going strong after the initial impulse.
If I should write a book about my experiences, I would most likely end up in court or ostraciced by a seccion of the flamenco community. I have already had someone try to take me to court, though without success, and I have been threatened with death.
It seems to me that the concept of self responsablity is disappearing: everything in life should be regalado.
I would not crowdfund this person, I would tell him to get off his ass and assume his personal responsibility.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Morante)
Could you please point those of us not in the know at these recordings Morente? I've heard of them (here on the foro), but don't know where I can hear them.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
I would not crowdfund this person, I would tell him to get off his ass and assume his personal responsibility.
But then you wouldn't be "part of the story" you are expected to subsidize.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
I would not crowdfund this person, I would tell him to get off his ass and assume his personal responsibility.
That's kind of the problem IMHO. He may be working his ass off. He may not be. There's no way to really tell...
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
That's kind of the problem IMHO. He may be working his ass off. He may not be. There's no way to really tell...
His initial post began flogging the Foro membership for contributions while still in Scotland, before he even set out for Spain. That would seem to indicate that his plan all along was to avoid having to work and save for his endeavor. Why put off instant gratification when you can cajole others into paying the freight.
Moreover, in one post he mentions his videos and writings, which he originally suggested would go as "rewards" to contributors to his project. But then in a subsequent post he seems to have decided he wanted to commercially promote them and asked Foro members for ideas about where he could best promote them. I suggested he engage an agent if he wanted to promote his material commercially. Never got a response. But then he would have to pay an agent, and the idea seems to be to get others to bear financial responsibility for his project.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to BarkellWH)
Besides this guy, there's the guy from Australia and his girlfriend who call themselves "FlamencoGypsy" who are engaged in the same thing, flogging for dollars. And there's the guy who creates a video whining for someone to give him a guitar to replace the one that is broken.
There seems to be no interest in exercising personal responsibility and earning their own financial support to fund their projects. Perhaps the Foro should create a separate category for this sort of thing. Call it "Flogging the Foro," or "Shilling for Dollars."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
(Barkell) OK, Dudnote, but if you really want to impress our budding young aficionado attempting to cadge funding from Foro members to increase his knowledge of flamenco (which already exceeds that of many Foro members) you will sing martinetes in the original Latin.
Dear Bill, you disappoint me! After years of posing here as a stalwart of the traditional tendency, this sudden concession to 'progressive' forces and the use of modern languages in an Ancient Art is somewhat startling. Latin? Pah! Tartessian, if you please.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to BarkellWH)
how did this get resurrected ????? ...... ...
... . and where's my Ferrari ? my ford fiesta has seen better days and I think Ferraris are great , and owning one would help me get on in life ..maybe a nicer girlfriend .... so i asked ... but has one turned up yet from you guys .....pffff... . . how am i suppose to get one without you giving me donations in return for pics of me driving it .... . what am i suppose to do ?/ work or something ,,?
save money my rolling by sleeves up and getting stuck in to some kind of worky thing thats hard or challenging ....I think not ....
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
There seems to be no interest in exercising personal responsibility and earning their own financial support to fund their projects.
Perhaps so. And perhaps in this specific case the person in question is just trying to skate through with other people's money. What I find confusing is this: Providing a service for money is a good chunk of all employment out there, at the very least it's what I happen to do for a living. I've also, in certain circumstances, received payment before finishing the job. In that sense, the crowdfunding model seems no different to me than doing a job paid up front or receiving a startup investment for a business venture. The so-called "rewards" are just the products you are purchasing or your return on investment. Whether it's a good deal or not...well...I've not contributed to any of the project that I've seen up on the foro until now so I suppose I'd have to say no.
What bothers me about this model is that it creates a lot of confusion around what is going on. Stu called it philanthropy. Is that what this is supposed to be? Is it business? Business passing for philanthropy? If it is philanthropy, than it is poorly thought out since even fairly dated research shows that handing out "rewards", whether monetary or not, tends to diminish people's readiness to participate (for instance, how the failure of the scheme to reimburse people for donating blood). If it's business, than it shouldn't be using the guise of philanthropy and there should be more checks built in to make sure that clients aren't getting ripped off. I've participated in two crowdfunding projects up until now. Both had legitimate reasons for using that medium of funding and both had expressed very clearly what the returns would be (and both were actually part of the community they were asking money from before they asked...none of that "this is my first post can I have some money"...). In both cases, the people who launched the projects were hard working and I have no regrets of having supported them. In other words, I don't think resorting to crowdfunding means that you are necessarily trying to get everyone else except yourself to shoulder the financial burden, though of course in many cases that is exactly what they are doing. My point is just that it is often hard to tell, especially in those cases where you no know jack about the person requesting the funding - such as this one. Though the part about wanting to promote his videos commercially when initially stated otherwise is a pretty big red flag indeed...
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
maybe a nicer girlfriend ....
lol. I hope for your sake she doesn't read foroflamenco .
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Dudnote)
quote:
Could you please point those of us not in the know at these recordings Morente?
Hola
When I arrived in Cádiz I found that all the aficionados were moaning about the lack of recordings of all the great singers of the past. I asked why nobody had recorded them, neither Ayuntamiento, Diputation nor Peñas. But nobody felt responsible. I tried to point out that the cante of today is the history of tomorrow, but nobody was interested.
At the time, there were two recognized masters of Cádiz cante, Juan Silva and José Millán. So I made a recording of Juan, which was a great success. Later I recorded José, but he was in poor health and died without seeing his record on the streets. Juan has also died, so these two records, irrespective of their quality, will be important in the future.
They were intended only for distribution locally: the price of wider promotion could not be justified by the prospective sales
Some of the replies on this thread are appalling. So ashamed to see a new member looking for support in learning flamenco being treated like this.
Student looking for a free ride??? Instead of ask legit question about FLAMENCO, he asks only for money, and tells us where he will be teaching it. Crazy man. I would not mind funding a project for Morante to reproduce/re print those two CDS, even though I already have both.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Ricardo)
I'm taking that as a 'NO' on my Ferrari then ...?
The thing not taken into account is ....
quote:
For those of you who don't know kickstarter, it's a crowd funding website in which you offer rewards in exchange for investment - rewards usually take form in the product that you're creating or exclusive offers, etc. However I am trying to create a reward section that would encourage potential backers to invest in my project for reasons other than simply wanting to support my study. It would be slightly arrogant and unrealistic to assume otherwise!
. .this is a very confusing and arrogant statement , even though he thinks its not ... as some of us ( here ) actually live in Andalucia ...others regularly travel there ...others again have flats or residences there . many here are Spanish from there , or even half Spanish from there .... so its a massive presumtion on his part that the people here have either A ... no connection with Andalucia , but would like to have B ....Never thought of actually going there themselves , either on holiday or for any other reason... . he is ... of all of us ... the very , very ,,,..first to think of actually going there to learn something he wants to learn .......genius .. . . duhhhh........... . . anyway ...i'm not the first one to want a Ferrari ...just the first one to ask you all for donations to get one .... come on guys ....i can almost smell it ....
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RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to El Kiko)
I'm gonna crowd fund for $4000.00 dollars, and then when I get the money I'll cut one of my guitars into however many pieces there are funders and send each person one piece of guitar.
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
That's not a bad idea....you up for it Morante???
No. The big problem is not reproduction but distribution. to send 500 CDs abroad I would have to pay 500 padded envelopes an 500 postage fees. Would not work.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
No. The big problem is not reproduction but distribution. to send 500 CDs abroad I would have to pay 500 padded envelopes an 500 postage fees. Would not work.
Or, you'd give the digital files to a company that would send 500 CD's. Obviously licensing and all that would have to be in contract but you really wouldn't have to do much except allow it to happen. The point of the Kickstarter would be to earn money to pay people to make the process easy and seamless. Lawyers, printers, distribution, the whole deal and if proper funding isn't met it just doesn't happen.
Printable Version
fair play to the guy for trying. He was also offering 'Rewards' which is a crowdfund staple. but his rewards might be like trying to sell sand to the arabs 
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