Ramirez fl1 advice.

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Ramirez fl1 advice.

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Barkis

Posts: 7
Joined: Apr. 30 2016

Ramirez fl1 advice.

Hi All

I tried and liked a Ramirez fl1 today but what is putting me off is the knowledge that they are in fact made elsewhere - presumably in a guitar factory. I have also played a Burguet flamenco guitar today and I really did not rate its sound.

I'm new to flamenco (from classical playing) and on a limited budget and I can only afford the Ramirez if I part exchange another (non flamenco) guitar.

Does anyone have any information on the origins of the Ramirez student guitars. Am I right in saying that even though they are not hand made by Ramirez they would still have to satisfy a certain criteria as set out by Ramirez.

I also like the neck profile of the Ramirez - which is very important to me. I would go as far as to say that I would sacrifice inherent tone as long as the neck feels right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 20:45:34

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

I own an FL2 - and I like it. It's a well balanced guitar with a comfortable neck and a typical blanca sound, it was well worth its price. Perfect for beginners and intermediates - however this student guitar varies in quality, I've played 3 more of these guitars and they were all a bit different both in tone and setup. But if you're new to flamenco you might not even notice the subtle differences.

If you're willing to spend 3k on a guitar I'd advise against the FL1, especially if you're unsure about the credentials. There are plenty of makers out there who can produce at least the same quality for the same price.
If I were you I wouldn't step out of the budget, it's probably better to get a considerably cheaper guitar that's still fine sounding and has a flamenco setup. There are many topics around the foro - even very recent ones - with discussion about this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 20:54:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

In Spain any maker can do or say whatever they want. If you like the guitar than it's good. If your not willing to spend 4K or so your going to get a factory guitar but If you like it than all's well that ends well.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 20:57:56

Barkis

Posts: 7
Joined: Apr. 30 2016

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Leñador)

Thank you for the replies.

Indeed, I can't say that I am good enough to discern between a range of flamenco guitars but what I can say is that in the classical and acoustic genres where I am much more accomplished I have, over the years, had some extremely high price guitars and eventually settled on guitars of modest price.

But because I am entering a new genre I kind of want to make a reasonable first purchase and because I prefer to play guitars before I buy this means that there is not a lot to choose from.

For example, the Burguet I tried today (at the same price as the Ramirez) was really an odd sound. Side by side with the Ramirez the Burguet sounded like a classical guitar and really did not have the sound that I associate with flamenco.

I agree that the FL2 is a better guitar but again - I believe this model was also made by another maker?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 21:14:53

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

It probably was made by a factory paid by Ramírez. But for sure the Ramírez flamenco models have the tone for flamenco. Of course it's best if you play the guitar before you buy.
Having to give up another guitar (which you may or may not really want) is the big minus in this deal. Fortunately the FL1 probably has a good resale value, so if you're not overly saddened by the loss of the other guitar, you can also view this as an investment. You probably won't need an upgrade for years (or ever). But I still believe there are better options out there for the same price range.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2016 21:40:08

Barkis

Posts: 7
Joined: Apr. 30 2016

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

Thanks

Indeed before I buy the Ramirez I will try and get to play some more. I just, from experience, don't always subscribe to the notion that a more expensive guitar will be better because I have often found it not to be the case over a long span of time playing. I rather stupidly once commissioned a guitar for £6000, and on paper it was a dream guitar. When it arrived I really did not feel that it lived up to the price tag and I promptly lost a lot of money selling it only to find a much better instrument at the fraction of the price. But in the other hand I have almost always found that really cheap guitars are never good enough to satisfy me.

I think you are right in saying try the guitar (I have) and if it delivers it will be fine. What I did like about the Ramirez was the lovely action and neck profile. As mentioned this is really critical for me.

I suppose the debate here centers around the pros and cons of machine made - v - handmade. I tend to keep an open mind on this because of good and bad experiences with both.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 8:14:11

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

I think you can assume that any unsigned Ramirez is made in a factory, probably in Valencia. Apparently the FL2 was made by the Burguet workshop for many years.
But does this matter?
You're quite right to try before you buy. The guitar must look right, sound right and feel right so you must try a few before you commit. But I think I'm preaching to the converted here eh?

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 8:25:56

Filip

Posts: 403
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

I have Ramirez FL1 blanca, got it six years ago. I am very satisfied with it, it is my first flamenco guitar and at the time I did not know much about flamenco guitars. They are not hand made, but in the store they say that they test them for quality.

Since it's the first guitar for you, I wouldn't worry much about it. Just go out and try as many guitars as you can, really. And you get the one that you like best, regardless who made it and how, I guess (check my other thread as well, people left some good comments for me). I know its tempting to have some famous name (I'd like to have a Conde for sure), but if you are not satisfied with it why spending so much money after all.
Btw, right now I am looking for some palosanto model and was looking around, there are some nice guitar but I am still not very convinced, maybe I'll postpone it.
Good luck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 9:32:20

Barkis

Posts: 7
Joined: Apr. 30 2016

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

Hi Kevin

Yes you are preaching to the converted - after many years and attempts at buying 'named' guitars unseen I have come to realise that what counts is what feels right in your hands regardless of where and how it was not made. That is not to say that handmade guitars are not superior because I largely believe they are - again from experience. For example I think its clear that several makers on this forum are making clearly superb guitars.

But for now the Ramirez feels like a solid choice to get started. It's not too cheap nor too expensive and I can live with that.

Regarding other Ramirez models. I have had the opportunity to play a fair amount of really expensive Ramirez guitars and honestly I really could not say that the price reflected the way the felt to me. Maybe we all know this deep down but the allure of certain models keeps the mind working overtime.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 11:02:37

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

It's like that in many fields of life, you're paying for the name, even if the quality doesn't stand out.
But the most important thing is that you feel happy about your choice, you will not be disappointed with the FL1 for sure. In the future as you progress in flamenco you will develop your taste for a certain type of tone that you want in a flamenco guitar and then you can re-explore the market and see what's the closest thing available to your dream guitar.

A year ago I took my chance on a Peña Vargas guitar, I had him build me a madagascar rosewood negra and it was the best choice I ever made. But I understand this is a risk. Still you might want to consider having a guitar built to your specs later in life.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 11:16:25

Barkis

Posts: 7
Joined: Apr. 30 2016

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

That's most probably what I will do.

I will grow as a player and then seek out a builder who will hopefully be able to make me a guitar to cherish.

At the end of the day the most gain comes from playing and learning. If you were to hand me the best flamenco guitar available I'd still not be very good with it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 11:33:25

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

If you like the guitar than it's good. If your not willing to spend 4K or so your going to get a factory guitar but If you like it than all's well that ends well.

I beg to differ. Our completely handmade guitars sell for substantially less than 4k.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 13:41:59

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

Wow, I would've never guessed, your guitars get high praise. I'm sure you know this but you could really charge more if you wanted to....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 14:06:03

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Wow, I would've never guessed, your guitars get high praise. I'm sure you know this but you could really charge more if you wanted to....

We're retired and only build a few guitars a year. We make them for the shear joy of it and sell them for as little as possible. Factory guitars can't compete with our prices or quality.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2016 18:31:40

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

Ah, what a great way to spend retirement! I'd hope to do the same!

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2016 4:31:31

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Ramirez fl1 advice. (in reply to Barkis)

Barkis--in many respects it does not really matter who makes X brand of a factory guitar, rather, it is how that guitar is made and the wood used. Ramirez farms out their student guitars but do so with their specs and requirements--for woods, design and build. Ramirez may farm out work to Alhambra or Burguet but they do so with a level of quality and performance dictated to each respective factory and those standards and/or design may be significantly different than the home factory's standards. As to the cost, Ramirez may tack on a few dollars because of their name or to cover the mortgage of their vacation home or boat.

That said, is the Ramirez factory guitar a great bang for the buck? Probably not. There are a lot of good to great factory guitars out there costing less money. Navarro comes to mind. There are a lot of good to great luthier built guitars out there--many built by luthiers who are members of this forum.

I would not worry too much about where Ramirez has their factory guitars built or by whom. Ultimately three things should be of concern: the sound, the feel and, of course, the price. If all three are agreeable to you then enjoy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2016 13:15:44