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Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
How much "sound" is the pl...
Would PDL, Paco Pena, Amigo Vicente sound 90% as good on a student model compared to a pro guitar? What percent would you put it at? I realize that they get guitars for free so cost isn't an issue for them.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
Around 5% is the guitar in my opinion. Hard to measure... Sure many players can make any guitar sound horrible. And many who can make any guitar sound good.
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
I get the impression that the great maestros would be "recognizable" on any guitar. Give Sabicas a cardboard guitar and you could still immediately tell it's him. Part of it is technique, but it's also that ability to project intent and emotion through the instrument. Their ability to do this is so strong that they can "overpower" the limitations that a cheap guitar would present. Most of us obviously can't. Put it this way, I played El Viejin's guitar and I briefly got the impression that I sounded like him. He played mine and he just sounded like El Viejin.
On the other hand, the objective qualities of sound very much depend on the quality of the guitar.
In other words, sound is 100% the player and 100% the guitar. There's no real "vs" here. On the one side there is the objective quality of sound that the guitar can produce, on the other side there is subjective quality of sound, the "personality" that only the guitarist can produce. But these are two separate planes that don't necessarily interact all of that much and in any event aren't in any kind of opposition to one another.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
I get the impression that the great maestros would be "recognizable" on any guitar. Give Sabicas a cardboard guitar and you could still immediately tell it's him. Part of it is technique, but it's also that ability to project intent and emotion through the instrument. Their ability to do this is so strong that they can "overpower" the limitations that a cheap guitar would present. Most of us obviously can't. Put it this way, I played El Viejin's guitar and I briefly got the impression that I sounded like him. He played mine and he just sounded like El Viejin.
On the other hand, the objective qualities of sound very much depend on the quality of the guitar.
In other words, sound is 100% the player and 100% the guitar. There's no real "vs" here. On the one side there is the objective quality of sound that the guitar can produce, on the other side there is subjective quality of sound, the "personality" that only the guitarist can produce. But these are two separate planes that don't necessarily interact all of that much and in any event aren't in any kind of opposition to one another.
I like your explanation and it makes sense. What I am really getting at here is how can I arrive at what I should spend on a guitar? The guitar I have which I paid $1,000 for is probably "good enough" to play until I die, but I might "sound" better and enjoy playing it more with a more expensive guitar. I am really at a beginner level and so maybe I need to improve more before thinking about this justified. I know it is not necessary for me to progress. I guess its the age old problem of living within your means. Some people drive very expensive cars and drink bottles of wine costing hundreds of dollars each. I am not wealthy so I must think about what is practical.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
I like your explanation and it makes sense. What I am really getting at here is how can I arrive at what I should spend on a guitar? The guitar I have which I paid $1,000 for is probably "good enough" to play until I die, but I might "sound" better and enjoy playing it more with a more expensive guitar. I am really at a beginner level and so maybe I need to improve more before thinking about this justified. I know it is not necessary for me to progress. I guess its the age old problem of living within your means. Some people drive very expensive cars and drink bottles of wine costing hundreds of dollars each. I am not wealthy so I must think about what is practical.
Got it. Sorry I went completely off track then! Price is and has been an issue for me as well. I started out with a cheap Antonio Bernal guitar (I think it was around 650 EUR) that served me well for the first few years. When I felt ready to move on to another guitar, my main priority was getting something that was not factory made. But the prices of luthiers, although obviously fair and many times generous considering the work put into it, can still be prohibitive for some of us. So I looked into second hand guitars. I'd been looking for a guitar for about 18 months when I finally got the one I have now. It just clicked. I bought it around 2000 EUR and its original price was at the low end of luthier-made guitars. I've since tried many much more expensive guitars but I've never found anything that came even close to this one. Not in terms of the objective quality of the guitar, but in terms of the very subjective sense of comfort I have with it. It's very comfortable to play for me and therefore I have a lot more fun with it than a guitar I'd have to "struggle" with. Basically, how much I spent on the guitar wasn't determined by anything else than how much money I could actually afford to pay (like you said, living within our means...). I had that limit of around 2000 EUR. So I went looking for guitars in that price range and kept on looking until I found something in that price range that worked for me. And for the use I make of it ("semi-professional let's say), I don't see the need for anything more. And it hasn't prevented me from progressing, rather the contrary, even if the more I play the more aware of my limitations I get...
Anyways, don't know if that helps. Just my own personal experience.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
Yes it helps. I am looking at around $3,000 as its hard to find something I think would be worthwhile below that. But I have found out I can't spend the money right now so it will have to wait. But the question was more philosophical about whether it will really make a difference. Its hard to separate desire from practicality. I don't think the guitar I have now is getting in way of me progressing.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
I think the $1,000 guitar I have meets the minimum threshold of of construction and design, especially after fixing the setup myself. When I have my teacher play it still sounds like my guitar, but his playing. I have decided I need to advance my playing before I consider spending more money on a guitar. Perhaps in another year I will revisit this. Just motivation to do the best with what I have.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
To throw a wrench into it, strings will truly affect your perception of sound too. Different string brand can make your instrument sound like a totally different guitar in some cases.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Ricardo)
yes , that is actually true ... I put Galli GR45 Titanium strings on a guitar that i thought lacked a lot of treble and was surprised by how different it sounded , much better ....liking this i put some on my Yamaha as well ,,,and it seemed to make no difference whatsoever.
note::they didnt make me play any better .....pity
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
Try turning things around and you will get a much more colorfull palette.
The guitar that sounds best in one set of hands might not sound best in another set of hands.
Guitar + player is a symbiosis. They need each other. The player needs an instrument that fits him/her and the guitar needs a player that fits its ways. You may devellop as a player a lot faster on one instrument than on another.
To that we can add strings. Strings have to fit the guitar AND the player. I dont choose strings mainly because of their sound but mostly because of their feel and how they respond to the pulsation of both my hands and my instrument. If they are right, I and the guitar sound the best. Both me and the instrument can adjust to small changes, but not much. I sounded bad with Savarez Corum Alianza because I strongly dislike their feel, but the guitar sounded good in other hands. The guitar sound good with Daddario JR45 in my hands, but pretty dull in another set of hands.
So conclusion: There are no simple answers to simple questions.
RE: How much "sound" is th... (in reply to Cervantes)
I'm unfortunate to have only played one flamenco guitar in my life so far. I have noticed the difference in strings so far but have stuck to a limited range , La bella working alot better than D'addario for my guitar in the same price range.
Anders, is it possible to say if certain strings correspond better with your workmanship or are all guitars different in this regard? I'm just asking because I want to try some more expensive strings on one of your guitars.
Besides all that, nails have an effect on sound too, probably the most if they are not filed properly because it will interfere with technique.
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Price is and has been an issue for me as well. I started out with a cheap Antonio Bernal guitar (I think it was around 650 EUR) that served me well for the first few years. When I felt ready to move on to another guitar, my main priority was getting something that was not factory made. But the prices of luthiers, although obviously fair and many times generous considering the work put into it, can still be prohibitive for some of us. So I looked into second hand guitars. I'd been looking for a guitar for about 18 months when I finally got the one I have now. It just clicked. I bought it around 2000 EUR and its original price was at the low end of luthier-made guitars. I've since tried many much more expensive guitars but I've never found anything that came even close to this one. Not in terms of the objective quality of the guitar, but in terms of the very subjective sense of comfort I have with it. It's very comfortable to play for me and therefore I have a lot more fun with it than a guitar I'd have to "struggle" with. 
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