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MUSIC & CULTURE...
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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 MUSIC & CULTURE...
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I was wondering if it is possible to separate a piece of music from its intended cultural significance. The reason being that it recently occured to me that I often listen to music primarily for "listening pleasure", and tend to avoid "buying into" the cultures associated with it.
One example might be my appreciation for the Heavy Metal music genre... but despite my interest, I don't have long hair, wear black clothes, worship Satan, or drive a Harley Davidson.
I hope my attitude doesn't come across as too arrogant, because I know many people are extremely passionate about their choice of music. Just recently, another member said something like "Thats what I like about Flamenco... its more than just a form of music!". And that got me thinking.
I know, for example, that a lot of Rap/Hip-Hop music fans adopt a particular attitude, manner of speech, dress sense and even social circle related to their taste in music. I'm not saying that this sort of thing is wrong, but is it better to immerse yourself in an artform or merely view it from outside as a spectator?
Some people might say... "Music isn't real", so its best not to immerse yourself too deeply in it. But others would argue that "Art immitates life" and vice versa.
I suspect as an "audience" one might naturally be alienated from the true cultural intentions of an artist. But I would also guess that sometimes natural cultural affinities exist between the artist and audience.
So... is it possible to separate music and its cultural significance? And if so, is that a good or bad thing to do?
Perhaps not such a simple question to answer, but any opinions are welcome ofcourse!
Thanks,
James
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Date Jan. 12 2006 23:25:27
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I think we can learn so much about ourselves from this question.
For me, the answer is yes, because all music has a soul, which makes all music and culture related to each other in some small form. I listen to nearly all music there is under the sun, and at different times, I can enjoy them almost equally. For example, a couple days ago I was watching PBS and saw a great concert by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band with guest artists... It was traditional bluegrass or country music, and for that moment, I could not take my eyes away, because I could see the heart that was being put in to the music, and I think I understood the whole inspiration behind the music. Additionally, being slightly musically inclined, I appreciated the musicianship and talent that was being displayed.
Coincidentally, that music was traditional acoustic music, same as flamenco in a way, and I believe I enjoy those musics most for some reason. They have an authenticity which I can understand.
The trouble that this has caused me though, is that my identity is not clearly defined by myself or recognized by others. Being young still, perhaps it comes with the territory.
Anyway, I'm not sure I ever wish to exclusively associate with a culture. It is not my nature. That said, devoting oneself to a music and all that it entails is the surest way of absorbing the essence of that music, if you want to be a perfoming musician in that genre, for example. Similarly, in order to form relationships and garner the respect of your peers, it is sometimes easier to subscribe unfailingly to the methods which they have created or follow.
Either way it's a sacrifice, because there is only so much time, making it so that if you do immerse yourself, you are missing out on so much other great content. And otherwise, you may not be enjoying that one single music or artform in a most complete sense.
This whole issue is one which is constantly plaguing me, so I'm interested to read people's thoughts.
-Rad
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Date Jan. 13 2006 1:16:03
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I first wrote Yes. Then I erased it and wrote No. Then I erased that. So what do I think? I think this is a tough question.
One way to look at it is that music is a multifacted phenomenon that can't easily be so pinned down into such a specific question. To go to the beginning of music, maybe some people slapping a hollow gourd or blowing on a reed between their thumbs, there does seem to be a universal element of rhythm and melody that all cultures enjoy. Kind of like a reverence of the supernatural/religion, which seems to be a common element among human societies. To me this means there must be an innate appreciation of music that exists in all human beings, just as there is an innate like of sweet things.
On the other hand, there is a way that music exists firmly in a culture. For example, flamenco or blues. These musics are/were intricately a part of what it meant to be a part of a particular group. If you were in the fields and hollering back and forth in those spirituals that preceded the blues, that was music but it was also just being there. Like speaking a language, it was just part of the whole thing. To suggest that an outsider could appreciate or understand this sort of music to the same degree as one who used it as part of his language or identity seems impossible. So in this way, it is part of culture and is inseparable from it.
Some people vehemently despise rap primarily for the values that it generally espouses, drugs, gangs, hos, violence... There is a racial and generational component to this dislike as well. On the other hand, people who are not from the ghetto of all races have liked rap, and that's why it has sold millions upon millions of albums.
But do those who are not of and from this culture, but still like rap, somehow buying into these values in an escapist way? Does the middle-class suburban teen buying a Ludacris album get a thrill from pretending to be a gold tooth-havin, prostitute-ownin, drug-dealin, thug? Most definitely.
Shifting back to flamenco, are then the fans of flamenco interested in escaping into gypsy or Spanish culture? I think some are and some aren't. Myself, I don't have much interest in hanging out in Poligono 86 all day and join in the bulerias when it spontaneously springs out of the hot sun. But some do. It's some form of escapism--but there's a lot to run away from, at least here in America. Where I live there is a
Walgreens convenience store on ever street corner, a big well-lit drugstore where you can buy aobut anyting you need, including stuffed animal Reindeer that sing and dance when you press their paws. If you want a guitar, you can go to Guitar Center and try out a bunch of overlacquered pieces of plywood, as dead a thing as you can imagine.
Probably a lot of Western aficionados want in some way to retreat to simpler times, when music was created, not manufactured in some record company executive's office in LA. They want to find a place where families exist and actually hang out, and have a good time having a copa and clapping por bulerias. They want to go to a store and find the owner, grumpy or nice, behind the counter instead of some teenager who would rather be somewhere listening to rap.
In any case, to my way of thinking the answer is yes and no. You don't have to know anythigna bout culture to get Mozart, I think, if you give it a chance. Same thing with rhythm or clapping or dance. On the other hand, intimate knowledge and connection with culture can immeasurably enrich your enjoyment and understanding of music. I don't think either answer is right or wrong.
_____________________________
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jan. 13 2006 3:32:21
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Where I live there is a Walgreens convenience store on ever street corner, a big well-lit drugstore where you can buy about anyting you need, including stuffed animal Reindeer that sing and dance when you press their paws.
Mike...you crack me up! 
That really cheered me up this morning!
Yeah, it's difficult this culture/music thing...and something that I'm sure a lot of non-Spanish Flamenco players/dancers/singers think about quite a lot, especially when they get very immersed and advanced in the art.
I definitely think the solo guitar has released itself a bit from the culture and there are excellent virtuoso guitarists out there who are non Spanish, speak no Spanish, have no great interest in accompanying, but understand and play Solo Flamenco extremely well.
I think it depends on how far you want to go with it...whether the guitar is your primary interest or the whole Flamenco culture thing.
I feel that the Flamencos themselves actually suspend reality for a while during a juerga or performance, reaching back into an older culture which no longer exists.
Then when the performance is finished, everybody returns to the real world of mobile phones, computers and dancing Reindeer toys.
cheers
Ron
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Date Jan. 13 2006 8:29:40
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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one thing i have found as regards culturally recognisable skills, whether it be flamenco or the martial arts is the thought that most people of that culture think it is impossible to fully comprehend that facet of their culture because you are a foreigner.
i had a heated debate with a spanish student once because he said since i was irish and thus not a gitano, i would never fully understand it,considering he knew little to nothing when i quizzed him about the styles, aked him to do palmas or anything related to flamenco, he could do nothing. but he still by the end of the discussion refused to believe i could truly understand it.
flamenco says something to me when i listen or try to play, its like im trying to bring something out of myself that i know was there, but never had the nuturing it deserved, its been theraputic for me in some repsects.
its the same with martial arts some teachers wil not teach you everthing fully or in some cases chinese teachers have refused students such as myself, for either being a westerner or in my case i studied a different style and told me it would not be worth my time as it would involve me going back to scratch.
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Date Jan. 13 2006 11:35:32
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to Ramin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ramin
The moment you catagorize things as good or bad, you have already altered your "true experience" of that event. So why worry it? Just experience things as they are! This is easier said than done though!!!
Ufff! What a statement. First, that way is the easiest of all "living style" - to not bother anything, and just "have fun". I know many people like that, also in my age and its a sad kind of philosophy.
Good, bad are moral words. So everybody has a different understanding of them, but its still important to evaluate things for yourself, to think about whats happening, about what happend, and to make decisions for your future and YES to think about it! Thats what seperates human from animal!
Everybody has a consciousness, we know that since reconnoissance! So lets use it!
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Date Jan. 13 2006 14:28:12
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Thanks guys... some interesting views here! Although I'm not sure I'm much closer to a definite answer.
I do think that there is some truth in what Ron said about Solo Flamenco guitar. One of the main things that first attracted me to Flamenco was solo guitar. Particularly as it had no lyrics. Many Rappers and Rock singers seem to make cultural politics an integral part of their lyrics, and I found that with solo Flamenco guitar I didn't have to contend with cultural politics, and could focus purely on the musical features. It was a similar case with instrumental electric guitar music. Perhaps this was my form of escapism? I wasn't looking to subscribe to any new ideologies, but more to be entertained.
But then came cante. I think I disliked cante initially because, firstly, it involved lyrics (and inevitably cultural politics, unless the lyrics are jibberish). Secondly, it is usually sung in Spanish, which immediately excludes those not fluent in it (like myself). So unless you speak Spanish, the cultural implications of cante lyrics are lost on you, and you must settle for listening ONLY for musical pleasure.
I'm sure some people would argue that even solo Flamenco guitar is inseperable from its cultural background for some reason. But I would guess that many audience members (regardless of genre) are blissfully ignorant of the music's cultural significance.
Perhaps this means that it is impossible to LITERALLY separate a musical text and its cultural identity... but that that the cultural identity can be "overlooked" or ignored by the audience. As for whether this is good or bad, your guess is as good as mine! Maybe Ramin is right and it is neither.
But I think that every user views and interprets a musical text in a different way (according to their socio-psychological status). And part of the beauty of music is its capacity for individual interpretations.
I think that unless we are intimately familiar with an artist (and their cultural background), it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to truly understand a piece of music.
I noticed that Estrella Morente printed the English translations to her cante album inside the cover. This does help to bridge the cultural gap. But even though I am no longer excluded linguistically, I still feel that I don't fully understand what she is referring to in some of her songs.
So... maybe its impossible to be truly immersed in music unless you ARE the artist. But I suppose you can go a long way towards understanding an artist's mentality (should you wish to). Although perhaps this understanding doesn't always come from listening to their music.
Henry, if Flamenco is more than just an artform, and is in fact specific to a geographic or ethnic identity, then perhaps the guy is right and you will never fully understand it. On the other hand, if its "only music" and just down to learning compas and chords, then I'm sure anyone can understand it.
BTW... I'd be intereted to know if any of you guys let Flamenco influence the way you talk, walk, dress, socialize, etc.
Personally, I've noticed that I sometimes say "Hola!" to people instead of "Hello!". Even if they're not Flamencos or Spanish!
James
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Date Jan. 13 2006 15:13:34
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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JBASHORUN,
quote:
Henry, if Flamenco is more than just an artform, and is in fact specific to a geographic or ethnic identity, then perhaps the guy is right and you will never fully understand it. On the other hand, if its "only music" and just down to learning compas and chords, then I'm sure anyone can understand it.
flamenco is an art form yes, and it is music yes, but music with a particuliar goal, the goal is to envoque duende (no not the bloke on this forum) and to represent the full spectrum of human emotions through music, from the meloncholy of seguiriya, happiness of alegrias, to pensive thoughts and self reflection in soleares, to a more firey tones of agression one can find in bulerias.
it is a skill like anything else in this world an can be learnt by all who wish to give themselves to this art and form of self discovery.
then again you could also flamenco as a means of how poor people amused themlseves when the had no money, and only music, song and dance to entertain themselves.
i prefer the former version 
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Date Jan. 13 2006 16:40:11
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Miguel, no, I just read philosophical books and was also interested in it in school.
But now there is no teacher whos explaining it to you. I always need a second book which is explaining the original book, pretty much everybody needs secondary literature.
Though Im not a bookworm at all. I wished reading would be more fun to me and that the stuff would be a little easier to understand 
Ramin, I dont say theres nothing right in buddhism. Every sort of philosophy has something "simpatico". But man, mankind has developed. The old philosophers like Plato, Sokrates and so on have been "corrected". Sure, they also had some right points; but we should be more clever now, because of Sartre, Kant and new philosophies, that can explain the things much better. Probably in 100 years there will be again new explanations. But the key is to move forward, not backward!
If you look at the medieval people in europe and what ridiculous ideas they had. They were more "retarded" in their views than the ancient people that lived 1000 years before them in greece or rome  .
Open minded ok, but dont loose your ability to try to divide right/wrong, to evaluate (YES even if its subjective :) ).
I wasnt referring to buddism by saying "sad". I was referring to the people, that live like "sheeps" that dont think or dont want to think about how things really work, and what the conditions are that make them think. Coz this way is leading right to the "medieval opinions". You make your own theories based not on logic, that please only your needs, how you want to see the world and not how its actually working (explaining earthquake as god's revenge i.e.).
This is no lifestyle to me Ramin. I know that buddism is pushed forward in the last 10 years. This has economical reasons but also psychological imo. To the fans of it it has become a substitute for religion in the western countries.
You know when religion became unpopular? When the people dont "needed" it anymore.
Marx said "religion is opium for the people" and he was absolutely right. History showed it.
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Date Jan. 13 2006 18:07:16
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to Ramin)
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Ramin, I wrote many things, covering many topics to support my view. Try to look beyond my hardy understandable english to get what I mean.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ramin
not everything in the world has to be judged, pre-judged, or classified as good or bad.
lol thats what its all about man! But youre again mixing the moral in it, which makes it all more confuse than it is.
As I said, good/ bad are moral evaluations, that means, everybody can have a different opinion on it. You say its bad I say its good, who cares?
The point is how you do explain your view :)
Youre saying everything is relative. In german this is called "slaughter argument". It's the death of every discussion.
Every person that can think divides good and bad; or at least should. The key is how you justify it. The better your knowledge is the more "profound" will your opinion and your judgement ability will be.
Im not talking about good and *evil*, like religious categories. Its the most normal thing I am referring to. The ability to evaluate. Of course everybody can do it different, but again, its on how you do it. And yes there is nothing that we cannot have an opinionn on.
The only thing that is beyond evaluation are the things we dont know yet, but thats ridiculous, since everything we dont know doesnt exist either (for us).
We can only judge things we know, sounds logical?
Thats for example the reason, why the death is neither good nor bad :)
Coz nobody has any knowledge on how it is beeing dead, coz when we live we arent dead and when we're dead we arent alive...
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Date Jan. 13 2006 20:15:20
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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The base form of the music will reflect its cultural background. The highest form of the music will reflect its attempt to devour its own cultural significance. Music begins as the voice of a particular cultural entity, but as it evolves, it comes to realize the limitations of its fixed, cultural and stagnant form. At the apex of musical development, music of any genre voices its own limitations. It mocks itself and expresses itself with the full sincerity of a voice that is conscious of the boundaries it operates in.
Just as any media that captures our attention transforms, from a shocking and profound revelation, to a news clip, then a short reference article in TIME magazine, and finally, a sarcastic one-liner on the Simpsons, music of any genre begins with the belief that what is expressed is sincere, true and profound, and graduates to the point where it speaks only to condemn itself of its shallowness, irrelevance and to suggest a drive to grow into something *more*. Observe the movement of music from the Romantic era to the Baroque era. Slowly, it satirizes its own stylized nature and transforms itself into another genre, like the passage of Blues to Rock.
In essence, music *inevitably* divorces itself from the culture that produced it, but this does not imply a clear seperation. Transcendent music is conscious of its cultural roots even as it attempts to escape the limitations of culture, and reflects it.
(Music of any particular genre is immortal. Granted, it is born, it dies. But the death of the genre is never permanent. To claim that it is would be to suggest that the entire element of fire dies when a flame is extinguished. The one aspect may have died, but it can be rekindled again, not present but not non-existent).
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Date Jan. 17 2006 5:31:57
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to Ryan002)
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quote:
At the apex of musical development, music of any genre voices its own limitations. It mocks itself and expresses itself with the full sincerity of a voice that is conscious of the boundaries it operates in.
Hmmm... are you referring to post-modernism here? And if so, does that mean that post-modern texts are in some way superior to non-post-modern ones?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ryan002
music of any genre begins with the belief that what is expressed is sincere, true and profound, and graduates to the point where it speaks only to condemn itself of its shallowness, irrelevance and to suggest a drive to grow into something *more*. Observe the movement of music from the Romantic era to the Baroque era. Slowly, it satirizes its own stylized nature and transforms itself into another genre, like the passage of Blues to Rock.
In essence, music *inevitably* divorces itself from the culture that produced it, but this does not imply a clear seperation. Transcendent music is conscious of its cultural roots even as it attempts to escape the limitations of culture, and reflects it.
I suppose this quote might be equally applied to Flamenco and Flamenco-jazz.
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Date Jan. 17 2006 18:02:15
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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My edumacation is the consequence of repeatedly sneaking into Uni lecture halls and badgering music lecturers and students with offers of free coffee and an adamant refusal to go away until all my inane questions are answered. Try it. It's amazing what you will come across.
Jbashorun, the answer to your question is that post-modernism is "somewhat" related to what I am saying. Think of the progress, in literary terms, from the conventional novel celebrating cultural roots (Realism) to the introspective questioning of cultural biases (Modernism) and finally the consciousness that cultural barriers are artificial and limiting (Post-modernism). The parallelism between the arts manifests very strongly in that all art forms, music, sculpture, etc. have largely followed the same "life cycle". The cycle perpetuates itself even on a scale as small as individual genres or sub-genres within an artform. Think of the Ouroboros, the old alchemical emblem of the serpent swallowing its own tail.
I would not venture to suggest that post-modernism is superior to the other modalities, nor would post-modern thought even allow that belief. It is merely "different", not "better". The only form of music that is truly post-modern is pop. It is heard all the way from America to Turkey, localizes itself wherever it lands while sharing common characteristics worldwide, is accessible to anyone from any cultural background because of its simplicity, and has no singular cultural "root" in its current day form where it may as well exist in cyberspace.
I utterly detest most pop songs. This alone disqualifies me as an advocate of post-modernism (not that its possible).
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Date Jan. 18 2006 4:47:36
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Ryan002
Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore
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RE: MUSIC & CULTURE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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First off let me say that pop may not be entirely worthless as a form of art. To suggest that pop is not art is to suggest that, say, advertising or movie scripting is not an art. It is shaky ground to stand on, since communicating and connecting with thousands of people, whom you will never meet personally, is quite arguably something worthy of artistic merit. Or at least, it would be hard to dismiss in totality.
Generally, the post-modernist "levelling" of discourses is easy to dispute. It is forced to level itself. If you say that everything has equal value, than the concept that everything has equal value is wrong, because it is held to be more valuable than the concept that some things are more valuable than others.
Mind you, don't dismiss post-modernism offhand. It has many strong arguments in its favour, and remember that its predecessor, modernism, is the key supporting tenet of facism. Be a bit of both.
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Date Jan. 18 2006 18:54:43
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