The Guitar in Flamenco

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

The Guitar in Flamenco

After seeing and hearing the "Fiesta de Otoño" on Ondajerez, I am even more convinced about the guitar being mainly a percussive instrument in Flamenco.
From Gerardo Nuñez, through to Diego del Morao and Moraito it was the same.
I personally think it is (now) impossible to analyse Flamenco guitar from a Western (Classical) music point of view.
It doesn't work in my opinion. Throw your music sheets into the bin! LOL!
A lot of what is played is musical "nonsense" but sounds fantastic in the framework of Flamenco and the compás.
Moraito, for example played a few falsetas that didn't "scan" musically but were brilliant just the same.
Gerardo Nuñez caught me a bit off guard as he played his own stuff which wasn't "Flamenco" but "Flamenco influenced".
He's a damn good musician, and can play Jerez style Flamenco guitar when he chooses to, but he chooses to go his own path.
Which is cool.....Like, nobody is forcing me to play Traditional Scottish music here!
Diego del Morao was extremely interesting.
He has an incredibly rhythmic sound which is quite infectious.
It sounded to me that he was de-tuning the low E string...does anybody know if he uses open tunings?
Zata said that she rated him. Which is worth a lot considering her experience.

All in all, it was a good festival and has got me thinking deeply about the stuff I heard.
After all this is Flamenco here and now, not an album or CD recorded 5 to 10 years ago.
If anything, my impression from what I heard was that "tunes" were old hat and "rhythm" was the buzz word.
Above all, my overall impression was that pure Flamenco was very far from being dead or being overtaken by "fusion".
But overriding that, is my impression that the well constructed "tunes" of players like Paco Peña, or the early Paco de Lucia etc are very definitely "old stuff" in Jerez.
Rhythm is in.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2003 21:12:45

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron:

Great post! I love the guitar, and the guitars I have! hehehe :-) But, I have felt the same as you for a long time when it comes to Flamenco. I'm not that enamored by the virtuoso aspects of flamenco guitar at all... it is about the art of flamenco that makes me want to play this music.

My favorite music to listen to is actually Diego Del Gastor, whom everyone I know seems to criticize as a poor representation of a flamenco guitarista. Poppycock! That man could play flamenco guitar. In my opinion, he was the consumate artist, and must have loved Flamenco dearly... his genius was in his ability to accompany with rhythm and (as you point out) percussive contribution to the singers and dancers.

I think the language barrier, and the lack of video (as compared to the audio recordings available) has kept most non-spanish musicians from really appreciating this basic fact of Flamenco culture, and that is... it's about the song of a people and has little to do with picado speed.

I thought you hit it right on the head when you described these virtuosos as flamenco infuenced artists. I could not agree more

Thanks for that post :-)

Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2003 21:30:36

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Above all, my overall impression was that pure Flamenco was very far from being dead or being overtaken by "fusion".

Ron,

I agree with you. I hear traditional Flamenco all the time here, and performed by young people, not just the old-timers.

Regarding Gerardo Nuñez: as a wannabe guitarist, I'd be lying if I said I don't admire the guy's abilities. He's truly a master of technique and creativity, and certainly has Moraito beat on those points. But just compare the Siguiriyas that he played accompanying Vicente Soto and the Siguiriyas that Moraito played with Jose Merce and tell me which one was more moving, more Flamenco. Moraito wins that test hands downs. As a soloist Moraito is not very impressive, but he sure impresses me when he's in his real element: accompanying a good singer.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 0:20:18

Escribano

Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

am even more convinced about the guitar being mainly a percussive instrument in Flamenco.

Ron, this rang a big bell so I had a look back at the notes of my week in Granada this year. One of my stronger impressions was that "the rasgueado, is a rhythmic, percussive device". I am beginning to understand this aspect even more as I practise on the Guitar Mute and heart the rasgueados as little drumming patterns rather than their harmonic consequences.

quote:

Rhythm is in.

You could say the same about contemporary European pop - mostly rhythm, percussion and bass, albeit horribly computerised and repetitive.

Still I think we have to fully appreciate where it comes from, in order to understand where it is going.

Good post

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 9:33:00

Escribano

Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Phil)

quote:

As a soloist Moraito is not very impressive, but he sure impresses me when he's in his real element: accompanying a good singer.

I have a tape of his performance at the UK Proms last year (with Jose). It's really raw and sweaty; one can taste stale cologne and tabaco negro in it. I wish I had been there

Can't find the damn tape now either.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 9:38:08

Melchor

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 1 2003
From: Jeré

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron nice post

For me guitar is an instrument mainly for accompaniment. I really enjoyed the "guitarras cantaoras" concerts but after some time I got a bit tired and was waiting for the cantaor to come out. Guess who has all these concerts on video....I didn´t have time this time to make a copy in Spain but next time.

quote:

As a soloist Moraito is not very impressive, but he sure impresses me when he's in his real element: accompanying a good singer.I have a tape of his performance at the UK Proms last year (with Jose). It's really raw and sweaty; one can taste stale cologne and tabaco negro in it

Imagine the same but in front of his people. For me watching flamenco somewhere else is like watching your football team playing in the enemy´s ground.

Melchor

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 10:25:11

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,
Wonderfull percussive playing with interesting chordings is great.
I guess all aspects of flamenco other than pure Cante, are all compromised in one way or the other. As I understand it the song is root form of expression and all other flamenco arts are there to support the song.
The dilemma for modern guitarists must be the solitary expression of the Root via their guitar and I guess that's the soul purpose of playing Fasetas.
Pure Compas only requires the guitarist to interperate in a percussive way but that excludes the essence of Flamenco and it's representation.
For cante, I believe there has to be a special closeness between singer and guitarist that requires the guitarist to lift the performance and support the singer and this effort requires a musical imput.
Just my thoughts!
Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 18:21:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Jim Opfer)

There have been a few interpretations of my original post, so to clear up any misunderstandings this is what I mean by "percussive".
I believe, (and this is only my own deductions from the music I have heard) that Flamenco guitar pre-Sabicas, was fairly basic, with an emphasis on compas.
Sabicas took it to his own limits, inspiring and influencing players like Paco Peña and Paco de Lucia etc.
During the late 60's and into the late 70's solo Flamenco guitar became quite classical in approach, with very well thought out phrasing and overall composition, leading to a lot of the modern Flamenco "Classics" we all know and love.
From what I hear now, the fashion now appears to be quite "retro", albeit with a very advanced and sophisticated technique!
Rhythm is now taking precidence over musically sounding falsetas.
It's the "new cool", judging from recent stuff I've been listening to.
For someone to have played something like, say, "Panaderos Flamencos" at the Fiesta de Otoño, would (I think) have been embarrasing for the audience and other performers as it would have been considered very uncool and perhaps even "naff", as that is not where the pulse is these days as far as I can see.

Anyway, back on to this "percussive" approach to the guitar.
This does not apply just to playing rasgueado or compas chording etc, but to actual falsetas themselves.
From what I have observed, Flamenco guitarists , when composing will choose to play an "opportunistic" note which lies under the left hand fingers if playing this note makes rhythmic sense, or provides punctuation, even if this note does not make any sense musically.
This is very different from Western style Classical music where a lot of the time the music can be written from the composers's thoughts straight onto paper, or the music transcribed from a piano or harpsichord score etc.
Classical guitarists will then adhere to the script dutifully and try to give their best interpretation of the written work.
Mind you, a lot of this music is fantastic and is our legacy of brilliant minds of the past.

But it does not have anything to do with Flamenco.
Flamenco falsetas are composed on the guitar, by guitarists.
If you look at some very good falsetas from a Classical viewpoint, they are all wrong.
Notes are doubled, trebled, irrelevant notes are added, phrases are abrupty ended seemingly short etc etc.
But this is because it makes rhythmic sense, which is uppermost in the player's mind.

This is why I feel that a Classical approach to the Flamenco guitar is not very helpful.
In Classical, the notes are paramount, in Flamenco the rhythm is all.
If the musicality of the progession has to suffer because of the rhythm, then so be it!
Of course when somebody comes up with a combination of both, then that becomes a classic falseta and is much copied!

Rasgueados?
I was on the FT Forum for a number of years and constantly read posts from students wanting to acquire a very even circular rasgueado.
Why?
Apart from the early 70's PdL albums where that became the short term fashion, I have never heard it since.
All good rasgueados are "lop sided" or "uneven".
That's what provides the rhythm.
Rasgueados that sound like a piece of cardboard being held against the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel may be impressive as a sort of showpiece to do once or twice in a concert or an album track as a sort of party piece, but they are essentially boring and are not really useful in actual playing.
I think the same goes for the extended, lightning fast picado runs.
You don't hear that much these days.
PdL more or less exhausted that.
Sure it was amazing to hear for the first few times, but these days I think there is just a feeling of, either a comparison to PdL or just general indifference.
I don't think anyone is impressed with that stuff now. Times have moved on.

Anyway, by the looks of it, I'm starting to write a Testament here! LOL!
So Gentlemen, (and Ladies) just to say that these are just my own observations which I don't claim to be correct. Just my current thoughts.
After all I have been known to be wrong in the past.
(Well...maybe just the once... can't really remember now! LOL!)

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 21:24:38

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron!

Well, you keep the minds working!

I heared the music of Ramon Montoya again, a few days ago, and I just bought the cd of Moraito, Morao y Oro, and I do think, it is not so much different, perhaps it is the retro thing, I believe, that the heart of flamenco is not changing.
Ofcourse you have extremeties, but the heart stays the same.

The flamenco guitar music was and is in fact not ment to written down.
So if you try to capture it in "western "notewriting, you get problems.

I think it was allways like that. If you want to write out Nino ricardo,(1904 - 1972)
or Montoya (1880 -1949) in musical notation, well, you ask for problems.

About 20 years ago you could not get easily a flamenco teaching book, or any other written music.
I remember, I asked my teacher about 15 years ago ( not soooo long ago)
for a Fandangos de Huelva, I was told that it is not on paper, it goes from father to son etc.

So, finally, I think it is not the flamenco that chances that much, but the people that plays it. there are suddenly European, Japanese, American people that ask, "isn't that written down?"

I hope everything is a little bit proper English, Ofcourse it is just my oppinion, and I must say, that my oppinion is a little coloured by my taste of music
greetings, Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2003 22:48:27

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

My favorite music to listen to is actually Diego Del Gastor, whom everyone I know seems to criticize as a poor representation of a flamenco guitarista.

Paul,
Are these people Flamenco aficionados or guitar aficionados? I find it hard to believe that a real fan of Flamenco would hold such an opinion of DdG. Although his playing is not technically difficult, it's original, distinctive, and captures that elusive "duende," for want of a better word. He's one of the few guitarists that can be readily identified after only hearing a few notes.

I only have 1 recording of Diego accompanying Joselero por Solea. Although I have heard him play other things on the radio, I'm mostly familiar with his falsetas via his nephews, Dieguito and Paco. But I'd like to hear more of him actually playing. He didn't record very much and it seems as though most of what he did record were private recordings. I like to see some of those recordings released commercially. What recordings do you have of him? Are they commercially available?

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2003 1:11:31

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

I enjoy flamenco and the special atmosphere and energy that this folkloric form has, but I also enjoy the virtuoso, flamenco-influenced pieces by those such as Paco de Lucia. My goal would be to do both, though if I had to choose one, I would choose the latter. I'm a guitarist, and I live in America, where there are few good dancers or singers and absolutely no audience. However, you can scatter in a bit of flamenco here and there and people will appreciate it. If you could play Paco's stuff I don't care, anybody would be impressed and enjoy it. Last night, I played a gig of Santana and Ottmar Liebert as well as a bunch of originals similar to the same (my partner has a CD), but the biggest applause when I played an old-school Soleares for kicks! The room got quiet and a certain magic came over the place for just awhile. I don't take too much credit, but it was probably the most inspired I ever played this simple piece. Playing with dancers or accompanying singers, what little I have done, was wonderful, but I think that I could generate the same fun with a band, say percussionist and bassist... doing a flamenco-inspired thing, hopefully with more duende than the current crop of "nouveaites".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2003 18:57:21

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

Phil:

Sorry I didn't get back to your question earlier, but I've been out of town for the better part of a week. I suppose that I get the opinions about DdG's playing from other flamenco guitarists rather than from flamenco afficianados in general... good point!

I have listened to Diego tapes that my teacher has, and I have heard the soleares with Joselero (de Moron). In fact, I have a CD of Joselero called Cultura Jonda 20 which includes the accompanyment of Diego de Moron which is all done using DdG falsetas and style... its one of my favorites. This CD sounds as if it was recorded sitting around in someone's kitchen, complete with coughing and throat clearing :-)

Are we on the same page?

Regards,
Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 21:40:17

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: The Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

have listened to Diego tapes that my teacher has, and I have heard the soleares with Joselero (de Moron). In fact, I have a CD of Joselero called Cultura Jonda 20 which includes the accompanyment of Diego de Moron which is all done using DdG falsetas and style... its one of my favorites. This CD sounds as if it was recorded sitting around in someone's kitchen, complete with coughing and throat clearing :-)

Paul,
I don't have that particular CD, but it's a release of an LP that was recorded in the mid '70s. Diego de Moron also released a solo 2 album set of Diego del Gastor's music around that time. At the time he was going by the name "Dieguito del Gastor". I had volume 1 of that set. (I lost all of my Flamenco Lp's in a house move a few years ago). It was recorded with wart's and all and I really enjoyed it. You may or may not know that Diego de Moron is Joselero's son and Joselero was Diego del Gastor's brother-in-law. I don't believe that Diego de Moron ever recorded anything else after those albums (I could be wrong about that). But, I'd really love to hear the tapes of DdG himself playing.
Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 22:39:23