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I was wrong. Its only useful after ligado to keep the mimi pattern. And in particular to keep the m on the first string that you can change to i on the second string coz its harder to play a note with i on an upper string and afterward with m on the second. Thats it. I think thats a very useful technique and use it alot.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
The logic of alternation is pretty simple. You can do a repeat finger with DESCENDING runs only. It is a bit of a trick, and if you "train" it that way, it can be useful. But the disadvantage is the sound when crossing that way is not consistant with alternation.
But the real problem exists in ASCENDING scales, where you absolutely can not repeat a finger if you want speed. So hence the benefits of practicing strick alternation at all times.
Here is a simple basic concept of string crossings that I learned from Paul Gilbert who applied his concepts to getting speed with alternate picking. To me the ideas are the same, down pick feels like i, and up picking feels like m. There is often a better way to do it that if you work out the left hand better, you will always have a more fluid and comfy way to play when alternating with the pick hand.
Here you need to start i so that the first string notes (5th fret) are always m finger. The reverse can be done but you are limited by the speeds you can reach and still have fluidity.
Jump to 6:40 to see Gilbert picking this slow and up to tempo.
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
Its not a thing you should "always" do
(Edit I see you changed your mind before my post went up)
My take is that when practicing picado exercises I do always alternate but then when playing music there are sometimes exceptions.
This one of Chicuelo's is a common exception where i plays, a ligado follows and then i again on the lower string so actually there is a note between the two i strikes.
If there where no ligado between then I would always alternate when crossing strings.
Yohan it's worth exercising so that one is comfortable crossing down or up with either m or i.(It is naturally more awkward to have m on the higher string and i on the lower). I put an exercise below that I just adapted from Paul Gilbert.
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
I find it really hard to change strings downwards with M-I then with I-M, for example when the b and e strings are repetitively alternated, perhaps because the index finger is shorter then M. Someone have that problem too?
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ricardo)
damn one more I just noticed he plays at 1:40. It sounds bluesy but actually it uses the spanish phrygian notes. So in key of A por medio the notes are A, Bb, C, C#, D, E, F, G. So in that key the pattern starts imimim etc keep alternating:
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks Ricardo. I just tried the first one you posted with the video. It feels like a great exercise for string crossing. To make use of crossing up/down with m or i leading this can be extended as follows. This forces m and i to switch from being either on the lower or upper string as you move from pair to pair-
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ron.M)
There is probably lot of debate about terms and origins, but I think speed metal comes from Cadiz, shred metal from sevilla/triana/alcala etc, and Death metal comes from Jerez. But don't quote me.
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
So what is the difference between..
Speed Metal, Shred Metal and Death Metal? Also what style would Brian May be categorized as?
I'd like to clear that up before I die.
Honestly!
cheers,
Ron
Ron, asking this question is the metal equivalent of starting a traditional vs. modern/what is or isn't flamenco discussion. Getting people to agree on the definition of all the various metal sub genres is totally impossible. I once witnessed two friends get into a shouting match over whether or nor a certain band was doom metal or death metal. We were all supposed to get something to eat later, but these two ended up storming off down the street in opposite directions. I though they were joking around or having a good natured argument, but they were both furious!
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ron.M)
Alright, Ron. Don't ever say I didn’t doing anything for ya. Here’s a scattered, bare bones take that skims over all the nuances that people can’t agree upon. And my own knowledge is more U.S. focused, so bear in mind that there’s some different labeling between American stuff and British/Euro stuff. And to make things much more confusing, many bands might start out in one sub-genre and then evolve into something else! Don’t hold me to any of this, and if some punter clocks you in an argument started with any of the info I offer here, don’t come cryin’ to me:
NWOBM= New Wave of British Metal. This is a good reference point to start out with, as pretty much everything that comes later is an evolution out of this movement. Late seventies. After the early “metal” pioneers (Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.) petered out, you got your Saxon, Judas Priest (compare their earlier bluesy hard rock sound to the later, driving Breakin' the Law style stuff to get an idea of the change that this new genre introduced.) , Iron Maiden , etc.). Kinda fast, influenced by the energy of punk. Lot’s of t-shirts and jeans, denim jackets, spiky belts. More of a tough working class aesthetic, with music to match. Motorhead, etc.
Speed Metal and Thrash Metal are roughly synonymous. Early eighties, stripped down, punk influenced stuff. NWOBM influenced, but even more stripped down and spare, and, obviously, fast. Early Metallica, Slayer, Megadeath (those are the big three, though I’m a Hirax man , myself). The SF Bay Area was the epicenter for much of this.
Shred Metal, I dunno, not my thing. This would be more slick, classically trained guys with yellow and pink guitars playing fast scales. Much different aesthetic. More of a focus on instrumental music, with none of the tough guy shouting/singing about dire subject matter than you’ll find in most other metal.
Death Metal is a big one, with endless offshoot variations. Oh boy, more of a mid to late eighties thing. Bay area stuff, a lot of stuff in Florida, of all places. Morbid Angel, Possessed, Death. A lot of mixed tempos, slower stuff with breaks in to super fast stuff. Over the top growling vocals like the Cookie Monster. A lot of it became really technical, with fancy instrumental breaks, crazy time signatures. Songs about morbid stuff, decapitations, chewing on some dude’s arm, etc.
Grindcore would be a largely British offshoot of death metal, centered around Earache records. Super fast, indecipherable, guttural singing, drums that sound like machinegun fire. Lot’s of punk/hardcore influence. Napalm Death, Carcass, etc. Songs based on autopsy reports, etc.
“Crossover” came about in the mid 80s when a lot of hardcore bands “sold out” and “went metal” (See: D.R.I.). This has since become a genre in itself.
Doom Metal: slowed down in a back-to-Sabbath way, with death metal style vocals. Monotonous, pounding, dour, dire, etc.
Black Metal: this term was earlier used to describe early eighties brit bands like Venom and Hellhammer, but later resurfaced in the early 90s in Scandinavia, mostly Norway. These are the guys with their faces painted white who burned down stave churches, killed each other etc. There’s some variation in sounds and styles, and a mix of ideological approaches, but here’s some random thoughts: Super, super fast. Shrieking, witchy vocals rather than deep growly vocals ala death metal. A lot of melancholy droning melodies played over super fast repetitive drumming. Much if this stuff was recorded in a deliberately crude, primitive, anti-commercial way. In response to other forms of metal getting cleaned up and sanitized these guys went in the opposite direction in an over the top way. Though there are other strains that lean towards a more grandiose, symphonic approach, evocative of Teutonic nights upon their mighty steeds. A mish mash of pagan Nordic-roots racist nationalism, misanthropy, fatalism. Aside from the killings and reprehensible and deeply stupid church burnings, much of this is comical in that these are all a bunch of middle class kids from one of the wealthiest counties on earth, with not much to legitimately complain about, yet this is the poutiest, most woeful genre of music extant. Emperor, Mayhem, Burzum are the big acts. I’m partial to Darkthrone myself, particularly their lo-fi masterpiece Transylvanian Hunger. Even though it started as a very specific and short lived regional thing, black metal has actually kept going and sprouted off in a lot of surprising ways. The aesthetic and the pessimistic ideology took root in a lot downtrodden countries in eastern Europe. The musical and, to a lesser extent, visual aesthetic (sans the racism) has become kind of a big deal in the U.S. in recent years. We’ve got a band here in town called Wolves in the Throne Room who have an increasingly growing international following.
So, that’s my off the top of the head attempt at a scratch on the surface. All of these genres have been revived and tweaked in various scenes at various times, blended in a million complex variations, Goregrind, Deathgrind, Melodic Fill in the Blank Metal, and on and on.
Added later: Oh, and I should point out that I'm NOT a true afficionado of this stuff, just a casual fan of a small number of the bands mentioned. So this is very much a layman's opinion. Take it for what it's worth....
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to srshea)
Wow!
Thanks for that mini-guide, srshea!
I recognize several of the names of the bands you mentioned, but never (knowingly) heard any of their stuff....was just too OTT for me.
So "Shred" is the middle-class end of Metal playing then... Interesting.
Anyway, it sounds like there was a lot of enthusiasm and energy going around then, which I like, compared to today's bland over-produced, sterile garbage.
As far as Electric playing goes, I must say I was never into Clapton, but liked guys like Carlos Santana, Mark Knopfler, Brian May...
Guys with a bit of clever musicality as well as technique.
Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood get a good "sound" together too, in a kind of basic "Moraito" way...
Probably the Electric guitarists who knocked me out the most EVER, were three guitarists from Lynyrd Skynyrd when I saw them live in concert in Glasgow.
I'd never seen Electric guitar played in that style before..
Each one would improvise on a riff until they were done, then another player would pick it up and take the lead. All very fast and with outstanding technique.
Posts: 4530
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
good old metal days with Marshall Amp and Ibanez guitar
i collected almost each and every solo CD from eguitar players. i don't remember all of them now , but guys like Patrick Rondat, Tony McAlpine, etc. were my "heroes" when i was a kid (and of course the more famous ones like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Yngwie Malmsteen, etc.). i was always the first one in the store, when any guitar CD came out and i told to seller of my favourite shop to phone me as soon as he had something new.
i also had a phase where i was in to hardcore death metal stuff. i loved the drummers of those bands !with those repeating mashine gun like double bass stuff! killer ! and of course the singers with those undefinable devilish voices !
thats quite a change to flamenco when i think about it
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
Math Metal. You might not have that in the US yet. It's metal played in weird meters, with a lot of time changes and polyrhythm etc. An example would be the band Meshuggah.
Math Flamenco Count the beats: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34..
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M never (knowingly) heard any of their stuff....was just too OTT for me.
Yup, that’s kinda the point. Pretty much all the stuff mentioned here falls under the umbrella term “extreme metal”, which denotes a deliberate attempt to push things as far as possible in a certain direction and make it totally unpalatable to a general audience. So the point is to be insanely fast, or punishingly heavy or whatever. A lot of the black metal guys would boast about how terrible their records sounded. “Our new record sounds absolutely awful. It’s our best yet!”
quote:
Anyway, it sounds like there was a lot of enthusiasm and energy going around then, which I like, compared to today's bland over-produced, sterile garbage.
I woke up early this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep, so I was thinking more on all this stuff and all the corrections and additions that I could make (which I will spare you). I was reminded of how many of these kinds of bands are still around, thirty plus years on. Underground metal has maybe the most fanatical level of devotion amongst it’s most committed participants, in the audience and on the stage. So many of those bands are still around in one form or another, still grinding it out year after year to modestly sized but earnestly devoted and loyal, knowledgeable crowds. It’s a true lifestyle, and these guys are lifers in the truest sense. It’s all a little bit like……….flamenco!
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to srshea)
quote:
So many of those bands are still around in one form or another, still grinding it out year after year
I know what you mean, srshea..
When I used to watch "Top of the Pops" on TV in the 60's, my old man used to laugh at some of the groups and say "In a year's time they'll be back to the scaffolding on the building site.."
While I would tell him to shut up and stop being a pain.
That actually would have been a mercy....'cos there are a lot of these old decrepit 60's acts still on the road trying to earn a bit of dough.
I felt a particularly poignant sensation when I saw a poster for major 6O's Liverpool band I used to hero worship as a kid.... PLAYING IN OUR LOCAL SCHOOL!
I'm not talking about major city-centre stuff....but a little local school in a tiny (practically rural) town.
Tickets just a couple of quid.
In the music biz, you gotta grab it while it's there.
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
milton babbit, gosh good point , that whole era was pretty harddchore!.
bill and ted Ron is i think a lot of various players but i loved the steve vai piece he was going well.
metal players can really shred i love that music years ago, still cool, hanger 18 megadeth what a solo anyway.
the think i love with flamenco (technical point of view) is just an oldr fellow playing a crap guitar and smokin' playing the fast stuff, no distortion, no pink guitars,just ge rawness.
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
The majority of math metal bands came from the US about 20 years ago.
quote:
Math metal... bhaa patooey!
People like Milton Babbitt made math metal for nerds in the 1940's and 50's.
Such deep roots! :D I just thought they came over an old recording of french progressive band Magma then added growling and 7-string guitars. Back to the school bench. Heh. Serial composition though.. that's just too heavy!
Shred metal is all about developing the flashiest technique. Neoclassical is similar but the chord progressions/tonalities and scales/arps come from classical music--especially Paganini.
Killswitch Engage used to be a math metal band--check out the song "Life to the Lifeless." Also, most of the guys in KE attended the Berklee School of music. Berklee was a mecca for jazz musicians in the 70's and is still highly respected. Joe Stump (neoclassical) is the professor of shred metal at Berklee and has several instructional DVD's on sweep arps. If you like Hendrix neoclassical players are the best at performing his music IMO. Oddly enough, Hendrix has been a huge influence on neoclassical metal.
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Excellent picado speed exercise (in reply to Doitsujin)
I have always liked Alex Hutchins:
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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