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have you guys seen this? Al discussing rhythm/ pretty cool
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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 RE: have you guys seen this? Al disc... (in reply to Mark2)
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yes ,, i agree with you 2, Mark2,,early stuff , when i heard it ..i though great ,,,great player and all that , always a few steps behind McLaughlin though the concepts are so different ...
as to the constant muting .. its a good trick and he does it well . . but you have to use it when it needed and not overdo it ,or then its just predictably boring ....
when i was an electric player i used to learn other peoples styles ..(you never know when it comes in useful) and my Di Meola impression was just that , i remember him having one of those roundbacked Ovation guitars ....
i had one of them too ....
actually in my new avatar drawing , thats it ...!
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jan. 9 2016 12:18:00
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: have you guys seen this? Al disc... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
Man, Al D. I don't like the guy. He is arrogant. I did like his early records. He was one of the first guys to play jazz lines with as rock sound, and I admired him as a player. But I think he was the weak link in the trio, but he seems to think he was the equal of the other guys, which I find absurd. Then there is the matter of his constant muting and horrible acoustic tone. Guy comes out with a horrific looking conde cutaway and plays crap while a cajon guy makes him look like a flamenco. Give it up dude and grab an electric. You are not a flamenco guitarist. There are like a thousand guys in Spain who can cut him in half and have not lost their humility.
I know you are venting about the guy. I agree his attitude is not, and probably never has been good. He truly was the "odd guy out" of the trio, to the point the other two ganged up on him and finally a fist fight (1996) ended the trio, though the tour completed under contract.
But in Al's defense, I will point out what I find to be positives of the guy's playing.
1. The muting thing. While a double edge sword, in the electric guitar world I am quite certain he was the influence on rock metal mutted rythm (vs predecessors such as Hendrix or McLaughlin). It evolved to be bad taste to mute the trebles except in rare occasions, but if you DON"T do it all the time on the basses it's plain "rude". (Talking 80's here). It's totally about taste of course, but if you don't get my point on this then I can already imagine how you might sound on loud distorted electric (grinding teeth in anticipation of twangy screaming uncontrolled rhythm guitar fuzz tone horror). Al himself admitted developing it due to being shy when practicing. I agree it had no place on acoustic (especially nylon) but it is part of the guys style, so it's fine with me. Of the shredders I know from the 80's, the only one that was doing it like Al (even on distorted treble strings plus acoustic) was Vinnie Moore. Anyway, Paco used a sponge under his strings to practice....the same effect having "popping" rhythmic notes...it is very helpful for practicing rhythmic music.
2. Rhythm...both strumming and improvising lines, the guy is just terrific. On the same tune played by Trio, Al would be the only guy mixing it up more with synchopation and triplet phrases ... He was just very advanced in this department and to say he wasn't as "good" or in league of the other two is simply wrong. Not to say he wasn't without some bad notes or got off time on occasion (despite his anal jerk attitude teaching about the quarter note not moving), but nobody played perfectly. I can show you Mac and Paco going out or bad notes as well. I know also many folks criticize his (for example) rhythm playing backing up Paco....that cheesy rock 2-4 thing many don't like. Well, honestly, it's a standard strum in Rumbas for some tunes (pacos' bro uses it for the end of the Tangos on Fuente y Caudel), it just is different with the pick but it it not wrong in anyway....and even if it IS bad taste in context of Mediterranean Sundance or whatever.... It's SUPPOSED to be fusion...the idea that the two are playing totally different styles but blending. Larry Correyl was a nice guy, Paco loved him, Al took lessons from him, but at the end of the day the rhythm thing here is obvious to me Al is top level.
3. Chords and scales....many people talk about him as a technical player because he plays fast. Sure those triplet patterns get old, but his application of the diminished 7th, and his use of voicing tight interval chord extension is really nice IMO. His arp patterns and such are fantasic. The end result it he has a very personal style and application that stands out IMO. And his approach to acoustic guitar with these ideas is orders of magnitude better than almost any other electric player that picks up an acoustic. I love McLaughlin, but tone wise, the right hand, Al has a nice touch that pulls tone out of the string way more tasteful than Mac. Nylon especially. Inferior to nails OF COURSE, but at least I can tell he makes an effort, unlike Mac who just picks too hard sometimes to make a decent tone. The ovation guitars are especially bad sounding. Al uses a Conde, over kill for a pick player, but at least he understand what a good guitar is tone wise. (Mcauglin used a Yamaha on the second trio tour  )
I Dont' follow Al so much anymore, my favorite of his works was the Astor Piazolla arrangements...a mix of nylon and steel guitars. The second album they did was especially nice. I know I am in the minority....most Al fans or even hatters think "Elegant Gipsy" and THAT's IT....and it's such an eye roll superficial take on the guy as artist IMO.
Finally, I want to say I learned a ton of things from his instructional video from 1991. I remember thinking at the time how important it was that he did that on acoustic and I am sure many felt they prefer his electric playing.
Ok, over and out on this.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 9 2016 19:15:21
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: have you guys seen this? Al disc... (in reply to Ricardo)
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I agree with a lot of your post. It's true that in particular, rhythmically Al is a very advanced musician. In fact, overall, he is a fantastic player, compared to most guitar players. But to me, his technical skills have not resulted in better music than many others, including the trio solos of Paco and JM.
If you are listening for intellectual application of musical concepts, Al is wonderful. I appreciate that stuff too, but it's secondary to emotional impact. Jm's album My goals beyond, is better, to me, than any acoustic stuff I've heard from Al, although I'll admit to not checking out Al's solo stuff for a long time.
He disses Clapton, who certainly doesn't have Al's technique, but somehow has created more memorable solos. With all his interesting rhythmic variation, Al has failed to create anything as meaningful as Jeff Beck. IMO. And if we must limit the comparison to fusion players of the same era, Ray Gomez plays with more taste and feel IMO.
Muting influenced 80's rock playing? OK. As to my own electric guitar experience, I have a bit, and muting is extremely important when playing loud, even before the 80's. Preventing bad **** is as important as playing good sounds especially when playing loud, but people figured that out way before Al. His practice of playing lines muted is fine, but its not some huge innovation IMO. At the end of the day, I respect Al's contributions, especially his work in RTF and his first few records. But for people who think he's one of the world's greatest guitarists, well, there's dozens of players that to my taste, leave him wanting.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2
Man, Al D. I don't like the guy. He is arrogant. I did like his early records. He was one of the first guys to play jazz lines with as rock sound, and I admired him as a player. But I think he was the weak link in the trio, but he seems to think he was the equal of the other guys, which I find absurd. Then there is the matter of his constant muting and horrible acoustic tone. Guy comes out with a horrific looking conde cutaway and plays crap while a cajon guy makes him look like a flamenco. Give it up dude and grab an electric. You are not a flamenco guitarist. There are like a thousand guys in Spain who can cut him in half and have not lost their humility.
I know you are venting about the guy. I agree his attitude is not, and probably never has been good. He truly was the "odd guy out" of the trio, to the point the other two ganged up on him and finally a fist fight (1996) ended the trio, though the tour completed under contract.
But in Al's defense, I will point out what I find to be positives of the guy's playing.
1. The muting thing. While a double edge sword, in the electric guitar world I am quite certain he was the influence on rock metal mutted rythm (vs predecessors such as Hendrix or McLaughlin). It evolved to be bad taste to mute the trebles except in rare occasions, but if you DON"T do it all the time on the basses it's plain "rude". (Talking 80's here). It's totally about taste of course, but if you don't get my point on this then I can already imagine how you might sound on loud distorted electric (grinding teeth in anticipation of twangy screaming uncontrolled rhythm guitar fuzz tone horror). Al himself admitted developing it due to being shy when practicing. I agree it had no place on acoustic (especially nylon) but it is part of the guys style, so it's fine with me. Of the shredders I know from the 80's, the only one that was doing it like Al (even on distorted treble strings plus acoustic) was Vinnie Moore. Anyway, Paco used a sponge under his strings to practice....the same effect having "popping" rhythmic notes...it is very helpful for practicing rhythmic music.
2. Rhythm...both strumming and improvising lines, the guy is just terrific. On the same tune played by Trio, Al would be the only guy mixing it up more with synchopation and triplet phrases ... He was just very advanced in this department and to say he wasn't as "good" or in league of the other two is simply wrong. Not to say he wasn't without some bad notes or got off time on occasion (despite his anal jerk attitude teaching about the quarter note not moving), but nobody played perfectly. I can show you Mac and Paco going out or bad notes as well. I know also many folks criticize his (for example) rhythm playing backing up Paco....that cheesy rock 2-4 thing many don't like. Well, honestly, it's a standard strum in Rumbas for some tunes (pacos' bro uses it for the end of the Tangos on Fuente y Caudel), it just is different with the pick but it it not wrong in anyway....and even if it IS bad taste in context of Mediterranean Sundance or whatever.... It's SUPPOSED to be fusion...the idea that the two are playing totally different styles but blending. Larry Correyl was a nice guy, Paco loved him, Al took lessons from him, but at the end of the day the rhythm thing here is obvious to me Al is top level.
3. Chords and scales....many people talk about him as a technical player because he plays fast. Sure those triplet patterns get old, but his application of the diminished 7th, and his use of voicing tight interval chord extension is really nice IMO. His arp patterns and such are fantasic. The end result it he has a very personal style and application that stands out IMO. And his approach to acoustic guitar with these ideas is orders of magnitude better than almost any other electric player that picks up an acoustic. I love McLaughlin, but tone wise, the right hand, Al has a nice touch that pulls tone out of the string way more tasteful than Mac. Nylon especially. Inferior to nails OF COURSE, but at least I can tell he makes an effort, unlike Mac who just picks too hard sometimes to make a decent tone. The ovation guitars are especially bad sounding. Al uses a Conde, over kill for a pick player, but at least he understand what a good guitar is tone wise. (Mcauglin used a Yamaha on the second trio tour )
I Dont' follow Al so much anymore, my favorite of his works was the Astor Piazolla arrangements...a mix of nylon and steel guitars. The second album they did was especially nice. I know I am in the minority....most Al fans or even hatters think "Elegant Gipsy" and THAT's IT....and it's such an eye roll superficial take on the guy as artist IMO.
Finally, I want to say I learned a ton of things from his instructional video from 1991. I remember thinking at the time how important it was that he did that on acoustic and I am sure many felt they prefer his electric playing.
Ok, over and out on this.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 10 2016 18:04:39
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