cante accomp question: Cada Vez Q Nos Miramos

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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

cante accomp question: Cada Vez Q No...

Hello folks - couple questions regarding SpB and Solea accomp:

1) I was listening to Cada Vez Q Nos Miramos (Camaron/Paco). Based on the threads regarding SpB, where, if I remember correct, it was said that the distinction between Solea and SpB is mainly in the cante - is this one considered SpB?

To my limited understanding, the toque says 'yes'. Though I know that toque part can be interchangeable to some extent.
But I don't know the cantes well enough to get past that

2) in the first compás of the letra, to my ear Paco plays a IVmin chord (Dm in por medio in this case) on 10. Though the chord sounds a little ambiguous in context. In fact, it sounds more like Bbmaj with the open E lydian note to me. But the melody note Camaron sings is something that I would often place a Dm chord to, for better or worse.
So.. is there something to the SbB melody where this melody and chord is very often the bII chord instead of the IVmin chord despite the melody that raises and makes me think we're going to IVmin?
I hear it as different than the typical Alcalá melody that goes to IVmin, but in the moment I would probably treat it the same, not knowing any better.
Is that wrong?

3), and speaking of wrong.. in the same letra, later, when Camaron goes to the cambio section, he has that resolution on 3 of the following compás.
Again, being a newbie, in the moment, I would probably get tricked by this, and think the singer was doing a 1/2 compás. And attempt to play out the final 10-11-12 and strongly articulate a 1-2- 3! in the following compás..

Would it be a problem to do that, or is this Camaron trickery considered normal by now, and I should recognize it and continue in the 12 count?

I know 1/2 compás is normal in bulerias, and does happen in Solea, but it seems less common in Solea. And maybe its "safer" to play in 12's in Solea?

4) finally, I was accompanying por baile, and the singer was singing quietly and not very well. Palo was SPB. We had our troubles...
After, in an effort to correct these problems, she said she was using the standard Curro Frijones structure. (To which I said "who?" and she said "the guy that 'invented' SpB". Not sure if that's accurate or makes all of this of dubious.).
Anyway, I see Norman has a whole bunch of Frijones melodies.. gotta check them out.
But structurally, is there anything specific to this "Frijones structure" that's odd?
My impression is that the Soleas, whether Solea or SpB are pretty consistent.

What I'm doing now is:
1) listen for first melody and try and correctly play I to IVmin, I to bII, or sometimes, all I chord based on the singer. Then..
2) does that repeat or not? (I usually listen for the letra to tell me what's up here) And if repeating, I assume (hope) the melody/harmony is the same, but maybe there's a surprise coming. then..
3) assume the cambio is coming. (hopefully). Plan on the cambio going down between 6 & 10. And assume the cambio repeats.

I suppose this corresponds to Norman's analysis using A B C D, etc.. (though I still figuring all though out,..)

Yes, I know not to assume anything. But this is what I'm going on for Solea and SpB accomp, with hopes I can figure out variations in the moment. Usually unsuccessfully..

Anyway, will this work for this dancer's Frijones expectation?

(And never mind Machos, Apolás and all that mess.. I'm just speaking of the basics)

Any advice?
Sorry for the mess of questions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2015 23:26:08

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Cada Vez Q Nos Miramos

This is Soleá de la Serneta. But you should not worry about these details, all of the soleares are relatively easy to accompany, though Soleá de Triana is slightly different.

The Soleá de Frijones is a soleá, with a normal E to Am or A to Dm structure, but the letras are often sung por soleá por bulerías. Your dancer knows more about dance than about cante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2015 9:29:22

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

This is Soleá de la Serneta.

What does that mean? That the opening letra of Cada Vez was initially sung (and composed?) by Sernata?

Are all of the cantes on this track from Utrera? All all tributed to Sernata?

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2015 17:28:45

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

What does that mean? That the opening letra of Cada Vez was initially sung (and composed?) by Sernata?

Are all of the cantes on this track from Utrera? All all tributed to Sernata?

Thanks!

Sorry, but it seems you need to study the cante a bit!

Cantes are named by districts or by cantaores. For example the soleá de Cádiz normally consists of two coplas of Enrique el Mellizo and a macho of Paquirri El Guante (de San Fernando). It is distinguished by moving between E and F, rather than going to Am.

Soleá de Alcalá is best known, following the scheme of E to Am, going down through G, F to E. The "turnaround" in both cases is G7 to C.

La Serneta is famous for her creation of a particular style of soleá. Born in Jerez, she lived many years in Utrera and some opine that her soleá is a variation of soleá de Jerez.

The most beautiful recording of the Soleá de Frijones that I know is by Tomás Pavón with Melchor. Tomás extends the first line for two compases with Melchor marking time, waiting for his Am. Then Tomás sings the rest of the letra a compás which gives an effect of double speed and great emotional power.

Nowadays the letra is usually sung a compás, probably due to the influence of the dance, and loses this impact.

But this is a minefield: you need to talk to an expert such as Norman: in the meantime just play the chords the cantaor asks for. Dancers generally have big egos and little knowledge of flamenco

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2015 18:10:46

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Morante)

Morante - thanks for the great reply.
I should clarify a thing or two:
the dancer in this story did not sing Cada Vez and say it was related to Frijones.
It was my own curiousity about Cada Vez..

What she sang was inaudible, so I can't say much about that, but she suggested that if I played accompaniment to Frijones (Frigones?) melodies, it would likely fit with the limited number of cantes she knows por SpB that she sings for her class.
She's not a singer and told me so.
Anyway..

After reading your post though, I'm still in the same pickle I was, only more informed.

Meaning.. I don't know if my level of afición will ever reach the level of being able to discern whether a singer is singing letras from this region or that.. Mostly because the people I've accompanied with just say "soleá" and the capo and arriba vs. por medio and expect me to respond to what they're doing with the correct chords.

But I"m trusting that with enough experience and better understanding I'll have the tools to accompany and get within the allowable parameters of the harmony and rhythms so that it doesn't sound wrong.

And thus my question: do you think that will never happen unless I can identify the type of solea, and it's region and where it comes from?
Don't get me wrong - I fully want to do that. And think that's an awesome standard to set.
I just don't know if I have the time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2015 5:02:57

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

"But I"m trusting that with enough experience and better understanding I'll have the tools to accompany and get within the allowable parameters of the harmony and rhythms so that it doesn't sound wrong.

And thus my question: do you think that will never happen unless I can identify the type of solea, and it's region and where it comes from? "

Seems to me that you are doing it already

That´s how I learned.

An encyclopedic knowledge will not necessarily help, especially if the singer improvises. The basic chords in soleá are limited and empathy with the singer is important. Believe in yourself and stop worrying.

Suerte

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2015 11:26:25

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Mostly because the people I've accompanied with just say "soleá" and the capo and arriba vs. por medio and expect me to respond to what they're doing with the correct chords.

Likely all you'd ever need here in the states.
Great thread! I love knowing the the how when and why of things.
It seems at shows and with people I've played with I only ever hear one of maybe 4-5 different melodies for solea(or nearly any palo come to think of it..) I only get exposed to the interesting stuff on canal sur flamenco radio. Trying to play along to that station has helped me a fair amount to keep me on my toes.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2015 18:24:43

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Great thread! I love knowing the the how when and why of things.

ditto

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2015 20:21:55

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Mostly because the people I've accompanied with just say "soleá" and the capo and arriba vs. por medio and expect me to respond to what they're doing with the correct chords

That's what my teacher in Sevilla told me, when I asked him how to distinguish the different forms... He (an excellent guitarist and teacher) then proceeded to sing various alternatives to demonstrate the differences (he definitely is not a cantaor

). It all sounded pretty much alike to me

"No problem", he said, "the chords are the same most of the time anyway"

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 10:51:17

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

"No problem", he said, "the chords are the same most of the time anyway"

Hola Ed

I hope your part of the world is as beautiful in autumn as in summer

Your teacher is right for most of us, but consider the case of a top tocaor:

Antonio Carrión was born in Alcalá, where the Soleá de Alcalá comes from. His father was a cantaor. Antonio began as a cantaor, decided he would never be as good as he would like and concentrated on the guitar.

Since he knows all the letras and how to sing them, he can tell what a cantaor is going to sing before he sings it.

Most cannot aspire to this level: indeed I know several hotshot guitarists who are never called by a cantaor because they accompany badly!

Suerte

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 13:54:39

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Morante)

Regarding the Cambio line that finishes on 3:

1) is that attributable to Serneta or is that a Camaron thing?

2) could one accompany that as if it's a 1/2 compas phrase?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 15:29:02

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

she said she was using the standard Curro Frijones structure.

to me that would mean A - Bb - A (1 compás), break for 1 compás, repeat first compás, then cambio A - Bb - C7 - F (1 compás) then F - Bb - A (1 compás) and repeat those last two

but just looking on Norman's site - next time someone asks for Frijones we can ask them "which one?" 'cos there are 4!

looks like there are 7 for La Serneta too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 15:37:04

Morante

Posts: 2182
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

1) is that attributable to Serneta or is that a Camaron thing?

La Serneta is mucho más antigua. Camarón did not invent any cante, just a style of singing.

Dancers dance in 12´s and 6´s are very rare in cante por soleá (the tocaor usually makes up the difference) and Mark is right too, there are lots of variations, including some which are made up on the spot!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 16:00:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

Cada Vez Q Nos Miramos

This is Soleá de la Serneta. But you should not worry about these details, all of the soleares are relatively easy to accompany, though Soleá de Triana is slightly different.

The Soleá de Frijones is a soleá, with a normal E to Am or A to Dm structure, but the letras are often sung por soleá por bulerías. Your dancer knows more about dance than about cante

Yep. If you look at normans site it's serneta 1 (AABCDAB structure), Serneta 3 (A-A-BC) and the last one I think is Andonda 3, closer to Juan Varea example he gives (stays on tonic with 5th scale degree then "resolves" to the IV chord)

About the differences of solea por buleria, we covered this a lot in the past if you search for "solea vs solea por buleria"

Here is the basic thing. For cante there are an enormous amount of solea styles, they can be accompanied at ANY speed from super slow to bulerias tempo...but the details are in the melodic arcs, specific notes, and structure. They are all quite similar. For example, I always thought Cada Vez was solea alcala as per intro melody...it's the same, but the B line of verse goes up to the 6th and down which Joaquin Paula does NOT do...so little things like that make distinctions but turn out to be super important if you want to keep things orthodox and correct. In the end there will be tons of mixing of styles ....and indeed norman notes many of those mixing details with each example.

Then you have the 3 basic melodies called "Buleria por Solea"...those might get mixed in with Solea letras at any time...it's a matter of taste if that is good thing or not. But that covers it for cante. Notice there is NO SUCH THING as "solea por buleria" cante wise...

So to guitarists you play slow or fast, por arriba or por medio. To make a distinction we might say "solea por buleria" but that means we play faster, more rhythmically strict, and perhaps in the por medio key, but that is REGARDLESS of what cante styles are sung specifically. And that's all the guitar might need to worry about...how fast and what is the best key.

Baile uses terms Solea to describe the slow dance, solea por buleria to describe the medium speed dance, and bulerias to describe the fiesta up tempo dance. But under "solea" the dance, you might find letras slow of alcala, serneta andonda etc....when the dance speeds up you may hear solea style de jerez (frijones 2) or buleria por solea (any of the 3 works for baile), depends on what the dancer wants. Later footwork may take on aire of "jaleos" or even require such cantes (Solea anonymous versions by R. Romero on norman's site), and later very fast tempos requiring bulerias cantes. The dance called "solea por bulerias" will probably forego any slow Alcala/Serneta etc type cantes and opt for buleria por solea melodies and solea de jerez...but it would not be wrong in any way for a saavy singer to sneak in any solea style he/she wants. So long as the dancer doesn't notice. What they WILL notice is that an ABCD structure cante might be too long for them vs an ABC structure solea...that's why I say a "saavy" singer can sneak it in so the dancer doesn't care.

As I have said many times, I feel the structure imposed on the guitarist and singer by the dance has forced the exclusion and virtual extinction of many styles. IN ADDITION...the half compas issue you mention....should be a normal thing every guitarsist should learn to deal with ....but again dancer and guitar will impose the box on almosty any of those cante styles, saddly, and it should be way more open. Choreography is quite limiting in this regard and guitarist tend to think this way and pass it on to other singers so they might hear many of Norman's old examples of cante as simply "out of compas" singing.

One last thing....por medio doesn't always transpose exactly....we allow Bb instead of Dm and F-C7 intead of C7-F for the cambio, and many other little things. That's why they alwasy say to listen to the cante, and figure out what is allowed by the studying the best guitar accompanists.
Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2015 17:49:33

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Since he knows all the letras and how to sing them, he can tell what a cantaor is going to sing before he sings it

Hola
Yup. Beautiful reds and browns

So I guess my teacher is a great cantaor after all, even if he can't sing

: in a palmas-class the cantaora was showing off her ability to sing the various forms of bulerias, switching arbritarily , and he'd adapt on the fly ... very impressive performance.

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2015 15:44:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante accomp question: Cada Vez ... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Regarding the Cambio line that finishes on 3:

1) is that attributable to Serneta or is that a Camaron thing?

2) could one accompany that as if it's a 1/2 compas phrase?

In case you missed my lengthy post earlier:
1.) no this thing can happen or not with ANY style of solea. It is one of the interpretive freedoms cantaores USED to take advantage of more often, and rarely do now.
2.) What paco did is how it "is done". On norman's site, he notes a few specific examples "cutting" the compas in half in similar situations...mostly only in "buleria por solea". There is a perfect example of Ramon Montoya doing for Jaun Mojama por Solea (same Serneta 1 style as camaron here, found in Jerez Cantaores no, 29 compilation put together by Antonio Perez)...but it is an unwritten "rule" to maintain 12 structure and feel for both solea and buleria por solea....but in buleria it's often done deliberately by the guitarist in the remate, and can happen almost any time you or singer wants. Keep in mind it is usually a detail of the GUITAR accompaniment....not necessarily a singer thing. By that I mean the guitarist ALWAYS has the option to square things off to 12 SOMEHOW.

As an outsider I don't really understand why it evolved to become cool to do in buleria, but a big NO NO in solea styles...it would make perfect sense to allow in either case OR solidify a 12 rule. But that is why understanding and respecting the tradition internally, without trying to impose too much outside musical type analysis is important for students.

Hope that helps.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2015 19:24:18