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RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to ToddK)
I ripped myself a new one earlier today....not sure it was music to peoples ears but it came from inside....was part of me and although not wholly ''natural'' it felt strangely ''natural''. Got me thinking that although it was out there it may be best flushed. This was duly done and upon washing up and walking I felt a familiar sense of envigeration and satisfaction. I now felt completely composed and ready for my new day.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Bill, there is more to it than that, though. I am no snob, but I do not want to hear the warhorses either. Maybe one or two. Classical music, like any art, needs new compositions of merit to be heard and established, or else it's nothing more than a living museum, musty and sadly nostalgic. That is why, yes, many object to the compulsive programming of Mozart. As someone said, "It may have been better had Mozart not lived"--because, despite how beautiful his music is, its very renown serves to suppress new creative works. There probably won't even be anymore concerts after this generation.
Miguel, I would push back on the idea that the classics (Mozart et. al.) represent a "living museum" and that they are "musty and sadly nostalgic." What I consider "sadly nostalgic" are pop and rock music that remind people of their high school days, or their prom date, for example. That is both musty, sad, and a little bit maudlin, as if their high school days were the high point of their life.
Mozart and the greats of classical music, as well as composers for the guitar such as Isaac Albeniz and Francisco Tarrega, remain appreciated and played today for the same reason great art and great literature remain appreciated. There are works of music, art, and literature that have withstood the test of time--yes, they are timeless. They speak to us in a way that goes beyond our temporal existence. And I repeat what I wrote in my comment above, there is no reason why such classics cannot be played along with contemporary compositions, just as there is no reason why one cannot appreciate reading the works of Tolstoy and Hemingway while equally enjoying the contemporary works of, say, Joyce Carol Oates and Thomas Pynchon.
Regarding the view that Mozart's (admittedly beautiful) music's "very renown serves to suppress new creative works," it is not its "renown" that is at work here. Rather, it is its high caliber and beauty that is in play. Yet, I fail to see why that should prevent and suppress new creative works. In fact, does it really prevent and suppress new, creative works? Are there not new compositions and works being produced today? Just as there is contemporary literature that is being published that is read along side the classics? And contemporary art work that is being produced and appreciated along side the classic works of art? Is music so much different from literature and art that creativity is stifled by the classics?
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
Would you listen to mediocre music just because it's original? Or would you rather go listen to some of the very best compositions played live by one of the top guitarists in the world?
Entre dos Aguas is a mediocre work.
That said, I do see why Todd got into it and mentioned the picado at 2:50, it does roar.
Nobody is born as composer, but a person with heavy guitar chops and some strategies about how to construct compositions is much closer to being able to do it.
If this was the last version of Entre I'll ever hear, do to Conde' virtuosity my listening to this piece will be complete.
How is that for a diplomatic answer?
As far as covering Paco, I think his later works are very beautiful and and sophisticated, I also don't know if I'd like Conde covering them. He can do 'feats with fingers', but his sound is not compelling or warm. Late Paco had a gorgeous sound.
I think these days we can get confused between who is the best technically and who is a real communicator. Paco had both, which is the real gift, to be a great communicator and a great technical player in the service of composition.
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to pink)
quote:
Ok Todd, here it is: 0.90x of the original speed
Thats around 180 bpm. Thats great. But Javier is well over 220bpm and with brute power and robotic evenness. Imagine how fast he does that run at home when nobody's around.
So yeah, you're not even in the same zipcode dude..
You're a good player Juan, but don't kid yourself man.
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Thats around 180 bpm. Thats great. But Javier is well over 220bpm and with brute power and robotic evenness. Imagine how fast he does that run at home when nobody's aroun
It makes my dick hard, but it does not warm my heart.
Well not literally a boner, but you know what I mean.
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
quote:
Ok Todd, here it is: 0.90x of the original speed
Thats around 180 bpm. Thats great. But Javier is well over 220bpm and with brute power and robotic evenness. Imagine how fast he does that run at home when nobody's around.
So yeah, you're not even in the same zipcode dude..
You're a good player Juan, but don't kid yourself man.
_____________________________
Ok this was meant to be a joke man first of all. Ive played many concerts in the past and played well so that comment about how fast he does that run at home doesn't even apply. Secondly, iam not struggling at 180 which means I can go faster. Third of all I can play that run with same speed maybe faster with picado tone. I have other videos where I get over 200 so no 180 is not my limit. Lastly, I can't sound worse with a high end Conde right? Oh no I forgot. Im not worthy of one.
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to pink)
Are we seriously putting Juan down because he posted that light-hearted (and, frankly, impressive!!) 0.90x video? "Not even in the same zipcode" in terms of what? Who cares??
I admire technical skill as a guitarist, but musically it can fall on deaf ears if it is used purely for effect. It just contributes to the culture of -- for lack of a better term -- musical masturbation, which fosters an inability to really convey emotion through music. It's sort of a lost art. This topic tends to deteriorate very quickly in the direction of "oh, well, technical players 'don't play with soul,'" but that, too, is complete BS. Technique is only useful in context, insofar as it allows for the sort of emotional expression that one truly feels deep inside oneself, divorced from the instrument. The ideal artist is one who has a refined technique that is used to convey all the sentiments and nuances that they seek to express.
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to pink)
Friends, chill out, seriously! Tomorrow if I sober up I'll do that run at 250 bpm.
Regarding Juan's picado... A few years ago when I was more active here we had a discussion about picado speed and Juan shared an audio clip of a run from taranta I believe that was OMG impressive. In the ballpark of 215-20. I have a feeling that he is always holding back and does not reveal his full potential.
Posts: 2007
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to estebanana)
I have tremendous respect for anyone who can achieve that level of guitar playing. I agree and disagree with Stephan here. Entre is a great work IMO because it communicated with millions of people all over the world, in the same way a hit that evolves into an oldie does. Not many instrumentals reach that level of acceptance. My wife listens to oldies and I can't stand it, but I have to admit many are great songs. Paco was both a great guitarist and communicator, and also a great composer. I also agree that Conde should write. He's got the chops to be considered one of the greats but that will never happen if he doesn't write. As has been pointed out, not everyone can or wants to compose.
No problem, unless you happen to be a flamenco, where that kind of creativity is required for one to be considered along with the top players. And it comes easily for professionals involved in accompaniment, where a guitarist is constantly expected to create material to enhance others performance. Everyone has heard Paco playing for singers using falsetas from his solos. What isn't known is how many, or which, of those falsetas were created in the service of a singer. All that said, JC will always be considered a great guitarist by those who appreciate his skill, and if he is happy doing what he's doing, it's good.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
Would you listen to mediocre music just because it's original? Or would you rather go listen to some of the very best compositions played live by one of the top guitarists in the world?
Entre dos Aguas is a mediocre work.
That said, I do see why Todd got into it and mentioned the picado at 2:50, it does roar.
Nobody is born as composer, but a person with heavy guitar chops and some strategies about how to construct compositions is much closer to being able to do it.
If this was the last version of Entre I'll ever hear, do to Conde' virtuosity my listening to this piece will be complete.
How is that for a diplomatic answer?
As far as covering Paco, I think his later works are very beautiful and and sophisticated, I also don't know if I'd like Conde covering them. He can do 'feats with fingers', but his sound is not compelling or warm. Late Paco had a gorgeous sound.
I think these days we can get confused between who is the best technically and who is a real communicator. Paco had both, which is the real gift, to be a great communicator and a great technical player in the service of composition.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
I'm with Ricardo, he sucks. Lolol jk
Pretty incredible, anybody able to clock that? It kinda sounds like the fastest picado I've ever heard.....
Hey, he could fix what I am talking about with a nail file IMO in 10 seconds. I clocked him at 109 bpm (32nd notes)...that's the tempo with drum machine. To be honest he rushes a hair at first then slows down. PDL typically does this tune at 104-107 so yes javier is a bit faster, but to my ear, Paco is noticeably more precise tempo wise. PDL's nephew jose maria bandera was one of the quickest I ever heard with clean crisp tone at 117bpm in Caña de Azucar (neither Paco nor Cañizares attempted 32nd notes in their improvisations at that tempo).
The fastest I remember clocking Paco was at 115bpm on some rumba on Solo quiero caminar, can't remember which track. I performed entre dos aguas with Grisha and he did the fast runs at 100bpm with drum machine, but he was feeling relaxed so I believe he can match Javier. Rafael Cortes we saw doing it at like 120 bpm, but upon slowing down the video I remember he was cheating on the run and not getting all the notes in. That's pretty much what I do too because when we play with my group at a more danceable tempo like 115bpm I have to cheat on it. I could probably to it correct at 90bpm range. It remains my opinion that the most impressive perfomer of Entre was David Cerredeula and group (120, slow down end run to about 115, then sped up into 130's LOL), although others disagreed with me about it (stating they only played 24th notes not 32nds), don't need to rehash.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
Tomorrow if I sober
Grisha ....we need a video of a drunken Grisha ....bulerias at a wobbly 40 to 90.b.p.m..... 13 beats in the compas ... ..don't forget to sing along as well .....
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to amigo)
quote:
At this piece "Callejón del muro" the first scale at 1:04 is 240bpm Very important: Every note sounds crystal clear!!!!
Thanks Amigo! It gives me more picado practice to do although many of you feel I don't need to practice it anymore but I'm just trying to go over that little barrier if it's possible. Grisha thanks for the motivation. Had a little down time now.. Here is the sample amigo posted.. Obviously much slower than Paco's version and missed a couple of notes but like I said I'm just trying to go the extra mile. Can anyone tell me the bpm on this one?
RE: Javier Conde ripping up Entres (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Hey Juan, do you think you'll ever be able to let a picado thread go by without talking about yourself and uploading video?
I try to stay away from most picado threads but after that sick performance of Javier's rendition of "Entre dos aguas" that you posted, it inspired me to try and shift it to a higher gear. It's just for fun man. What's wrong with trying to get a bit faster if the possibility exists? Ok, I'll start focusing more on phrasing, rasgueados like you said. (Even some composition.) @Grisha: Wow, many thanks for the feedback.... I'll try to post more.
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