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What's the technical name for the A chord that's common throughout flamenco (attempt at a diagram below)? Basically an A major with the Bb added on the third string. Is it an Ab9?
Ab9 or Ab 9? What's the convention for writing these things?
The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.
Getting anal, there's no 7th on that particular shape although there's a G (the 7th) that is implied and more often than not it gets played around that chord. Maybe the anal form would be some sort of "A add b9".
A(b9) Or A add b9...or add b2 are correct also. Technically, a "9" of any type implies that the 7th is already present in the harmony. That is what is meant by "extensions"... 9,11, or 13 imply a 7th chord has already been constructed. Added intervals to a basic triad can be called "add 2,4, or 6" until the 7th (g or g# or gb note in this case) appears. Using (...) is a way to abbreviate the "add" concept.
"Ab9" implies a dominant 9th based on tonic note Ab (Ab-C-Eb-Gb-Bb)
a flat 9 is only if the is a b7th i.e .. a dominant chord ...this is a major chord and tonic usually , so not a 9th but a 2nd..which is a kind of suspension .. so a flat 2 (nd)
so with no 7th an 11th would be a (sus) 4 and a 13th would be a 6th
edit ...oops just read Ricardos post here ....yes correct ...
a flat 9 is only if the is a b7th i.e .. a dominant chord ...this is a major chord and tonic usually , so not a 9th but a 2nd..which is a kind of suspension .. so a flat 2 (nd)
so with no 7th an 11th would be a (sus) 4 and a 13th would be a 6th
edit ...oops just read Ricardos post here ....yes correct ...
Yes b2 is "more correct" than add 9. With suspensions it's more common that a 2 or 4 be in place of the 3rd... Hence its not a major or minor diminished or augmented triad. Asus2 or Asus4 for example omits the C# note. Aadd2 might confuse the issue in some cases when chart reading so we more often see Aadd9 so that it's crystal clear it's not a sus chord and the 3rd must be present in the voicing
We can agree though that using the A string as the root of the chord makes the note of Bb a flattened 9th which by convention we call Ab9.
Actually i thought you might give us a modal explanation of the chord....if the A is the 3rd chord then the root would be F. How would we then name the chord?
if the A is the 3rd chord then the root would be F. How would we then name the chord?
There's not a genre of music that I know of where that would be an F chord. I see (and hear) that as Ab9/F.
You both are wrong 100%... I already spelled out what Ab9 chord is .... The question is regarding the chart name for chord in question.... Harmonic analysis uses Roman numerals anyway.... In the end this is a flamenco chord ....different discipline so the name is arbitrary. Por medio is the chord position and functioning name.
quote:
"Ab9" implies a dominant 9th based on tonic note Ab (Ab-C-Eb-Gb-Bb)
The Ab9 part I wrote as a reference so that it was understood, I don't really care for chord naming wars.
Anyways, I don't see you saying that it is a F chord either so... I must be wrong just because you're right about something.
edit: I was under the impression I had already talked about the "burocratic part", seems I did...
quote:
Getting anal, there's no 7th on that particular shape although there's a G (the 7th) that is implied and more often than not it gets played around that chord. Maybe the anal form would be some sort of "A add b9".
The Ab9 part I wrote as a reference so that it was understood, I don't really care for chord naming wars.
Anyways, I don't see you saying that it is a F chord either so... I must be wrong just because you're right about something.
I know you know your stuff... But.... He was talking about F root not in terms of chord voicing but that the A chord derives from F scale in context of flamenco, as if it needs a new "name" in context ... So your Ab9/F was just a gigantic irrelevant confusion bomb (though I admit it's a cool chord alone... More like an Fm11addb9)
So your Ab9/F was just a gigantic irrelevant confusion bomb
Hmm, I see.. maybe I didn't explain myself well as Iam not familiar with Pimientito's understanding of theory.
The "Ab9/F" means just what you said... which is, you don't focus on the F to form a chord, it's still an A structure (A is the root, not a 3rd) but with an F at the bottom.
Harmony gets much simpler when you learn that it's not about "all the possible combinations" but about little changes and/or extensions to the basic triadic structures. Everything too fancy are just inversions and will sound like the chords that they really are, no matter how complex your fingerings might look (a "root", a 4th and a 6th for example.. it's just a simple inverted triad).
That's why it's best to analyze chords with the ears first if you can instead of diving into diagrams and formulas.
The "Ab9/F" means just what you said... which is, you don't focus on the F to form a chord, it's still an A structure (A is the root, not a 3rd) but with an F at the bottom.
The entire point I've been making is that writing "Ab9/F" has Ab as the root, not A. A(b9)/F is what you meant. So you are NOW dead meat
What pimientito meant was A is chord III in F major yet made major cuz it's supposed to be iii .... But nerds say it V(b9) in D minor .... But he and nerds all wrong, it's freakin tonic I... But I'm already done w this
But nerds say it V(b9) in D minor .... But he and nerds all wrong, it's freakin tonic I... But I'm already done w this
It's a matter of context. I agree with you but I can see (and hear) why someone would theorize A as the dominant. IMO, calling "home" the dominant isn't practical but if you're used to studying other genres (common practice stuff) I guess it's kinda natural if you end up thinking of everything functioning as a natural major scale and borrowing from there to explain other stuff.
But yeah, I think it's a bit stupid and it might be a shot in the foot regarding standardization of flamenco music theory. Going from por arriba y por medio to "the III of the XI over the tonicization of the median XXX...".... wtf lol
The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.
"Ab9 is fine IMO" if you know what it means to you (and your pals). On a computer screen you can't understand that the flat sign is related to the 9 unless you know it is...and since this is flamenco, there's no Ab
Ab9 is an Ab chord, so unless you're handwriting your stuff or you know what it is... it is wrong.
The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.
"Ab9 is fine IMO" if you know what it means to you (and your pals). On a computer screen you can't understand that the flat sign is related to the 9 unless you know it is...and since this is flamenco, there's no Ab
Ab9 is an Ab chord, so unless you're handwriting your stuff or you know what it is... it is wrong.
Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple
Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple
If you were writing down your stuff for yourself on paper, wouldn't you be able to write Ab9 with a little space between A and b9 and understand what it was? Really?
Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple
If you were writing down your stuff for yourself on paper, wouldn't you be able to write Ab9 with a little space between A and b9 and understand what it was? Really?
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