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siliconsoniquete

 

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr. 14 2015
 

What's this chord? 
What's the technical name for the A chord that's common throughout flamenco (attempt at a diagram below)? Basically an A major with the Bb added on the third string. Is it an Ab9?

1 2 3 4
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|---|---|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|---|
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 4:26:10
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to siliconsoniquete) 
The simple answer is yes. If you dont play the 6th string and use the A string as your root then its an A with a flattened 9th note added.

Ricardo can give you the complicated answer

BTW- Here is a very useful chord naming page
http://www.jamplay.com/tools/guitar-chord-finder/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 8:04:24
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to siliconsoniquete) 
Ab9 or Ab 9? What's the convention for writing these things?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 18:00:09
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

Ab9 or Ab 9? What's the convention for writing these things?


The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.

Getting anal, there's no 7th on that particular shape although there's a G (the 7th) that is implied and more often than not it gets played around that chord. Maybe the anal form would be some sort of "A add b9".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 18:34:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to siliconsoniquete) 
A(b9)
Or
A add b9...or add b2 are correct also. Technically, a "9" of any type implies that the 7th is already present in the harmony. That is what is meant by "extensions"... 9,11, or 13 imply a 7th chord has already been constructed. Added intervals to a basic triad can be called "add 2,4, or 6" until the 7th (g or g# or gb note in this case) appears. Using (...) is a way to abbreviate the "add" concept.

"Ab9" implies a dominant 9th based on tonic note Ab (Ab-C-Eb-Gb-Bb)

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 18:43:20
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Pimientito) 
no its not a b9

a flat 9 is only if the is a b7th
i.e .. a dominant chord ...this is a major chord and tonic usually , so not a 9th but a 2nd..which is a kind of suspension ..
so a flat 2 (nd)

so with no 7th
an 11th would be a (sus) 4
and a 13th would be a 6th


edit ...oops just read Ricardos post here ....yes correct ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 20:02:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

no its not a b9

a flat 9 is only if the is a b7th
i.e .. a dominant chord ...this is a major chord and tonic usually , so not a 9th but a 2nd..which is a kind of suspension ..
so a flat 2 (nd)

so with no 7th
an 11th would be a (sus) 4
and a 13th would be a 6th


edit ...oops just read Ricardos post here ....yes correct ...

Yes b2 is "more correct" than add 9. With suspensions it's more common that a 2 or 4 be in place of the 3rd... Hence its not a major or minor diminished or augmented triad. Asus2 or Asus4 for example omits the C# note. Aadd2 might confuse the issue in some cases when chart reading so we more often see Aadd9 so that it's crystal clear it's not a sus chord and the 3rd must be present in the voicing

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2015 22:07:28
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Pimientito) 
quote:

Ricardo can give you the complicated answer



We can agree though that using the A string as the root of the chord makes the note of Bb a flattened 9th which by convention we call Ab9.

Actually i thought you might give us a modal explanation of the chord....if the A is the 3rd chord then the root would be F. How would we then name the chord?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2015 9:15:04
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Pimientito) 
quote:

if the A is the 3rd chord then the root would be F. How would we then name the chord?


There's not a genre of music that I know of where that would be an F chord. I see (and hear) that as Ab9/F.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2015 16:00:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

if the A is the 3rd chord then the root would be F. How would we then name the chord?


There's not a genre of music that I know of where that would be an F chord. I see (and hear) that as Ab9/F.


You both are wrong 100%... I already spelled out what Ab9 chord is .... The question is regarding the chart name for chord in question.... Harmonic analysis uses Roman numerals anyway.... In the end this is a flamenco chord ....different discipline so the name is arbitrary. Por medio is the chord position and functioning name.

quote:

"Ab9" implies a dominant 9th based on tonic note Ab (Ab-C-Eb-Gb-Bb)

Ricardo


Next person to call it Ab9 is dead meat

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 18:27:54
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

You both are wrong 100%


The Ab9 part I wrote as a reference so that it was understood, I don't really care for chord naming wars.

Anyways, I don't see you saying that it is a F chord either so... I must be wrong just because you're right about something.


edit: I was under the impression I had already talked about the "burocratic part", seems I did...

quote:

Getting anal, there's no 7th on that particular shape although there's a G (the 7th) that is implied and more often than not it gets played around that chord. Maybe the anal form would be some sort of "A add b9".


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 19:15:52
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

You both are wrong 100%


The Ab9 part I wrote as a reference so that it was understood, I don't really care for chord naming wars.

Anyways, I don't see you saying that it is a F chord either so... I must be wrong just because you're right about something.

I know you know your stuff... But.... He was talking about F root not in terms of chord voicing but that the A chord derives from F scale in context of flamenco, as if it needs a new "name" in context ... So your Ab9/F was just a gigantic irrelevant confusion bomb (though I admit it's a cool chord alone... More like an Fm11addb9)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 19:24:25
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

So your Ab9/F was just a gigantic irrelevant confusion bomb


Hmm, I see.. maybe I didn't explain myself well as Iam not familiar with Pimientito's understanding of theory.

The "Ab9/F" means just what you said... which is, you don't focus on the F to form a chord, it's still an A structure (A is the root, not a 3rd) but with an F at the bottom.


Harmony gets much simpler when you learn that it's not about "all the possible combinations" but about little changes and/or extensions to the basic triadic structures. Everything too fancy are just inversions and will sound like the chords that they really are, no matter how complex your fingerings might look (a "root", a 4th and a 6th for example.. it's just a simple inverted triad).

That's why it's best to analyze chords with the ears first if you can instead of diving into diagrams and formulas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 19:40:24
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

The "Ab9/F" means just what you said... which is, you don't focus on the F to form a chord, it's still an A structure (A is the root, not a 3rd) but with an F at the bottom.


The entire point I've been making is that writing "Ab9/F" has Ab as the root, not A. A(b9)/F is what you meant. So you are NOW dead meat

What pimientito meant was A is chord III in F major yet made major cuz it's supposed to be iii .... But nerds say it V(b9) in D minor .... But he and nerds all wrong, it's freakin tonic I... But I'm already done w this

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 21:37:26
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
In fact I prefer A add b9 but if people call it Ab9, it's fine for me as long as we're talking about the same thing

I think Ab9 doesn't work well on computer and could drive jazzers nuts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 21:47:03
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

But nerds say it V(b9) in D minor .... But he and nerds all wrong, it's freakin tonic I... But I'm already done w this


It's a matter of context. I agree with you but I can see (and hear) why someone would theorize A as the dominant. IMO, calling "home" the dominant isn't practical but if you're used to studying other genres (common practice stuff) I guess it's kinda natural if you end up thinking of everything functioning as a natural major scale and borrowing from there to explain other stuff.


But yeah, I think it's a bit stupid and it might be a shot in the foot regarding standardization of flamenco music theory. Going from por arriba y por medio to "the III of the XI over the tonicization of the median XXX...".... wtf lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 21:55:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

In fact I prefer A add b9 but if people call it Ab9, it's fine for me as long as we're talking about the same thing

I think Ab9 doesn't work well on computer and could drive jazzers nuts.


well I am not a jazzer and I am being driven freaking nuts !!!!!!!

No way on earth Ab9 is correct to write in any context to imply that chord ... Other than acknowledged typo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:16:45
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
dont want to throw more dead meat in to the fray ... but ..

to make it flamenco ... the flamencos call Phygian .....Dorian ( Dorico ) anyway

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:18:45
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

dont want to throw more dead meat in to the fray ... but ..

to make it flamenco ... the flamencos call Phygian .....Dorian ( Dorico ) anyway

Only Manolo Sanlucar and friends since his weird book


I often feel I'm arguing with really bad Google translations when discussing flamenco theory online

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:19:46
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
We could stand here and talk until the cows turn blue...


so its settled then Ab9 it is .....?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:23:07
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to El Kiko) 
G#9 it is

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:27:10
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Only Manolo Sanlucar and friends

not just him ... everyone ....

and that was to do with the Pope ...as we use the Pope's standardized ecclesiastical modes today...
even though they existed before ,,,,,


''my dad called it dorico so i do to ... dont care what the Pope says ... he doesnt use Dorico anyway ...'' thats the flamenco way ,,, traditional

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:28:49
 
El Kiko

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Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
ok G#9 ..agreed

But only if I get to play Augminished and Demented scales ...deal?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:31:15
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.


"Ab9 is fine IMO" if you know what it means to you (and your pals). On a computer screen you can't understand that the flat sign is related to the 9 unless you know it is...and since this is flamenco, there's no Ab

Ab9 is an Ab chord, so unless you're handwriting your stuff or you know what it is... it is wrong.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:34:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

The "b" belongs to the 9. If you need to group them, I think "A b9" would be the correct form but it looks a bit odd. Ab9 is fine IMO.


"Ab9 is fine IMO" if you know what it means to you (and your pals). On a computer screen you can't understand that the flat sign is related to the 9 unless you know it is...and since this is flamenco, there's no Ab

Ab9 is an Ab chord, so unless you're handwriting your stuff or you know what it is... it is wrong.

Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:46:15
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple


If you were writing down your stuff for yourself on paper, wouldn't you be able to write Ab9 with a little space between A and b9 and understand what it was? Really?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 22:56:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

Ab7, Ab9, or Ab13 I use in cantiñas/Alegrias in C all the time. Wrong name is wrong name its that simple


If you were writing down your stuff for yourself on paper, wouldn't you be able to write Ab9 with a little space between A and b9 and understand what it was? Really?

No

Ru I mart in s

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 23:14:05
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

No

Ru I mart in s


I said it doesn't work at the computer, try that on paper and send it to me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 23:24:30
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Ricardo) 
This...

2
4
4
4
2
x


...is a Bbsus4 chord, I don't care what you say. It has the tonic, the fifth and.. the flattened supended fourth!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 23:28:10
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What's this chord? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
Send me your address ... On paper



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2015 23:28:15
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