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I have played 6 & 12 string acoustic for a number of years. Started classical about 8 months ago and am currently introducing myself to flamenco.
I know enough now to know that compas is very important and want to start using it in my practice sessions, but understanding it is driving me "bonkers."
Here is my understandings. Please correct them as they are probably in error.
Generally flamenco music is composed/played in a 12 beat, recurring rhythmic pattern with accents on the 3rd, 6th, 8th 10th, and 12th beats. So in 3/4 time a Compas would be composed of 4 measures, and then repeat itself. In 4/4 time a Compas would be composed of 3 measures and repeat itself.
Each type/family/genre of flamenco, such as Solea, Bulerias, Fandango, etc adheres to the above mentioned beat/accent pattern but, depending upon the type/family/genre the breat pattern would start on a different note. For example, at least so I have read, a Solea or Alegrio would start on beat number one. So in 3/4 time (all 1/4 notes) you would have something like this:
Measure 1: Notes 1 2 3 4, Beat count 1&2&3&4&, Accent on note 3, Beat 3. Measure 2: Notes 5 6 7 8, Beat count 5&6&7&8&, Accents on notes 6 and 8, beats 6 and 8 Measure 3: Notes 9 10 11 12, Beat count 9&10&11&12&, Accents on notes 10 and 12, beats 10 and 12
Now, so I read, Bulerias, Fandangos, etc start on beat number 12, and this is where I'm probably even more confused.
In 3/4 time is note 1 (the first note in the first measure) simply counted as beat 12 and accented, note 2 counted as beat 1, note 3 counted as beat 2? In the 2nd measure is the first note, note 4, counted as beat 3 and accented, etc,etc?
In 4/4 time is note 1 counted as beat 12 and accented as would be the 4th note, which would be beat 3?
I apologize for this somewhat confusing first post, but I don't know how else to state my questions.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Thanks Miguel. Some good info there, but it still did not answer a central question for me, that is, in a Bulerias, for example, is the first note of the first measure counted as beat 12 and accented, or is it simply counted as beat one and not accented? If that's the case then note 3 of the first measure would be the first accented note, I guess. But, again, if that's the case then it would not be any different than say a Solea which starts the count on beat 1.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Gecko)
Hey there and welcome to the site, this is great for all your famenco needs. As for your bulerias question, as far as i know it's usually starts on the 12, BUT.... different charts/tabs are sometimes starting in different spots. I usually see the bulerias starting with anacrusis, so it will be the first bar with one beat of music in it ( the 12) and then it's back to 1 2 3/4 5 6 etc. One way to check is find out when the musical phrase stops. Then go backwards from there because the stops are generally on the 10 so count back to the 12 or 1.. I hope this is making sense and not confusing you even more. Where's Toddk when you need him???? See ya & Good luck Larone
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Hmmm, im reading that first post, and im trying to understand the issue here. Im not really sure what you mean.
I honestly believe you wont have much luck trying to learn any flamenco from paper/numbers alone.
I know for sure, i couldnt have learned it that way. No way...
The best way to approach it is to start with either an instructor, or the next best thing, a DVD like Juan Martin or Oscar Herrero.
Start with Solea, wich is 12, but dont worry about numbers. Just learn the notes, and try to match it up by ear with what you see and hear on the DVD. Then you will slowly begin to reverse engineer the compas from there.
In my opinion, its impossible to try to learn the notes/chords/techniques, at the same time as the compas. Learn the compas away from the guitar. You can learn compas from a combo of the DVD instructionals, and just listening to alot of flamenco. Clap along.
Too many people try to sit there a count while they're playing.(out loud or in their head) That is NOT the way. Trust me. I cant emphasize that enough. Dont count and play!
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Francisco)
IMO, the reason for counting is to understand how the 3/4,6/8, and 3/8 measures fit together within the two tempos (beat on every count - e.g., slow Solea taconeo acompaniment - vs. beat on every other count (e.g. Bulerias 3/4 cycle).
I use Arabic mnemonics now - One example por bulerias:
3/4 Dum teka tek teka dum tek (repeat, say, 3 times followed by a resolution phrase) 6/8 Dum teka teka Dum teka teka
resolution phrase: 3/4 tek dum dum teka tek
Siguiriyas: 3/4 Dum teka Dum teka Dum teka | teka Dum tek teka Tek |
BTW, even though notationally the 6/8, 3/4 format is correct vis a vis accentuations, I prefer to think of it as two measures of 3/4 with a "hiccup" on the count 7 (The Dum in the second measure above.) This means the compas cycle resolves on count 10 as in Bulerias - in fact, the second measure is sometimes used as a variant of a resolution phrase for bulerias (dancers do Pellizcos on 6,7, and answer on 9,10), as well as the other Bulerias resolution phrase variations (7,8,10), (6,8,10), (6,9,10) Guitarists can do rasgueos (e.g. triplet "Marote" rasgeo)....
Of course, you can plug these accents back into slow Solea (see the Compas Analysis for a discussion of the two tempos.....)
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Actually, the above post was me......:-) ( had a little fino tonite, or I would have done the measure bars right - since I was a guest, I can't edit it) - I did a review of the Sara Baras concert on the Flamenco Dancer list, and the first half is a discussion of bulerias where I THINK I got everything right.
BTW, I left out the Jaleo compas por Bulerias in the above discussion - too complex to discuss in detail, but it is also in the Compas Analysis....
There is also a post on Flamenco Dancer, where, for better or for worse, I analyze the (well, ok, a) compas difference between Solea, Solea por bulerias, Bulerias, and Jaleo...
Solea - compas starts on 1, 4 measures of 3/4 Solea por Bulerias (cante accompaniment) compas starts on 12 Jaleo (compas starts on 1, fast tempo) Bulerias (compas starts on 12, arbitrary format until resolution phrase)
The tricky part is the transitions between Bulerias and Jaleo (there are a number of falsetas in the falseta collection that do that - again, a discussion on Flamenco Dancer fairly recently)
Solea and Solea por Bulerias are normally in different sections delineated by llamadas (tercio,cante copla, taconeo), but if you have to, the same princples apply.
Re: Using straight 3/4 measures for Siguiriyas - it makes it a LOT easier to program on drum machines or in Fruity Loops, Ableton Live, or SONAR.......:-)
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www.FlamencoChuck.com Compas Analysis, Music Theory for Flamenco, "A Flamenco Journey", etc.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
I know I have not stated my question(s) clearly. So let me try again.
Lets assume a 12, 3, 6, 8, 10, accent pattern all 1/4 notes. Where in the music do I find the note that corresponds to the first 12 accent? Is it the first note in the first measure? For example:
3/4 Time
First Measure has 3, 1/4 notes. There would be an accent on the 1st note which would correspond to the 12 count.
Second Measure has 3, 1/4 notes. There would be an accent on the 1st note, which would correspond to the 3 count .
OR
Do you treat it similar to a pickup note preceding the first whole measure of music? For example:
3/4 time all 1/4 notes
Pickup measure has 1, 1/4 note. That note would correspond to count 12 and be accented. First whole measure has 3, 1/4 notes. The 3rd note in that measure would be counted as 3 and be accented.
Restated - where do I start counting the first 12 from?
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Gecko)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gecko I know I have not stated my question(s) clearly. So let me try again.
Lets assume a 12, 3, 6, 8, 10, accent pattern all 1/4 notes. Where in the music do I find the note that corresponds to the first 12 accent? Is it the first note in the first measure?
Fun stuff this flamenco, isn't it?
Ok, lemme try. The simple answer to your questions is "it depends how the piece was notated"
But a very common way, for example in bulerias like your pattern above, would be to notate the whole thing as 3/4 to keep things simple, and that first 12 accent would (sensibly) be on the last beat of a measure. This is the way Juan Martin notates his material, (he also adds the accents above the corresponding beat and the count (12, 3, 6 etc) as well).
However, notation is just a means to to an end - Paco Pena uses measures 12 beats long to notate this kind of stuff, which makes life easier in some ways...
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Dear Gecko.
There are no specific rules for writing down a compas in standard (classical) notation. Some people put the 12 on the first count, others write it as pick up. Some people use two 3/4 bars and three 2/4 bars, others use four 3/4 bars to write one compas.
One guide is maybe the change from A-chord to Bb-chord. The Bb starts very often on the 3rd count. If you can find that change somewhere in the Tab then maybe you could count back to the beginning of the piece.
But like others have said, this is a little bit the reverse way of learning the compas. If you can't grasp it by ear, then it means very little.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Man...first, BuleriaChuck! We are honored! Second...Gecko, you are making this way too hard on yourself. It's kind of like saying, how exactly do you notate the drum part for rock? Who cares..! Just listen, like Todd said, Boom Chik Boom Chik....unless you are trying to professionally notate a flamenco solo. Trying to make flamenco fit into classical notation is an exercise in futility. Just my opinion.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Yeah cristal clear Jon
Only in flamenco does 12 come before 1
I always tought that 0 or nothing was before 1 damn gipsyes didnt know how to count
what's wrong with saying :
"-And 0 123 456 789 10 And 0 123 ..."
or "-Nothing 123 456 789 10 And Nothing 123 456 789 10 , i can just imagine the communication: "- Paco I need something just before the Nothing but nothing you playd so far fitts, the Nothing needs to stand out then a pause and nothing until the dancer comes on and does something"
Its sad cause right now i am loughing my arse off like an idiot at my own joke and its probably not even all that funny to anyone else .. ohh ..
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria you are making this way too hard on yourself. It's kind of like saying, how exactly do you notate the drum part for rock? Who cares..! Just listen, like Todd said, Boom Chik Boom Chik....unless you are trying to professionally notate a flamenco solo. Trying to make flamenco fit into classical notation is an exercise in futility.
Point taken but sometimes when someone digs themself into a hole you need to get down into that hole to help them back up again
If Gecko is, for example, following a tuition video and trying to make sense of the tab its a perfectly sensible question.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Jon Boyes)
Of course, it is possible to notate flamenco accurately, even with the anacruses. However, it should be emphasized that the "12" is NOT an anacrusis; it is a Flamenco way of counting a 3/4 or 6/8 measure.
| [3/4] 12* 1 2* 3 4* 5 | or |[6/8] 12* 1 2 3* 4 5|, instead of 1 thru 6. Compases that start on 1 are 1 - 12 (4 x 3/8, although can somewhat arbitrary for Bulerias falsetas) OR 1-12 (4 x 3/4) exact for taconeo solos/accompanying falsetas, but sometimes with accents on 3, 6, 8,10 or other variations (3,7,8,10), (3,6,9,10) etc.
The 6 - 11 is the resolution phrase (in Bulerias) The actual resolution is on 10 (the "pivot point"), sometimes accentuated with a redoble on 9aa10 - with 11 unaccented. The most common "anacruses" (which usually refers to the beginning of a measure) are on counts 10 as above, or on count 3 for Buleria/Solea por Bulerias.
12 - 11 is for Solea por Bulerias (Solea pa Cante). At least, the way I figure Solea por Bulerias......
Flamenco is complex, and ultimately the best answer is to listen a LOT, especially to records before 1985 for the foundation (you have to be careful about the newer ones....)
I have over 400 records (LP's, CD's, Videos), and organized them into palos, so I could listen to as many different artists playing the same palo as possible.... The counting, combined with knowledge of tempo, and the forms within the palos) is helpful in identifying rules. One of the best Bulerias for learning I have heard so far is Manolo Brenes accompaniment of Beni de Cadiz on the Rito y Geografia del Cante - he throws in everything but the kitchen sink, all in perfect compas and aire. Also, the palmas accompaniment is excellent (except for the "civilians" who are just enjoying the hell out of the show); and Beni de Cadiz is priceless .......
Bottom Line - a first goal in any palo should be to be able to play all the forms within a given palo using basic chord progressions and rasgueo, before even trying any falsetas. That will give a feeling for the "question-answer" harmonic and compas relations within the palo.
Suggestion - Learn to program a drum machine or sequencer for phrase accompaniment - drum machines really require you to "get it right", both in programming them, and using them as rhyhmic backing.....
Finally: these distinctions are applied to all members of the Solea/Buleria families - an in addition have been applied to almost all the other triple meter families in one context or another - one can find an example of anything if one looks hard enough. The key criterion is consistency metric phrasing within the variations within the palo.....
Well, ok, "feeling" is important too (didn't want to ignore that for you touchie-feelies (I almost forgot to mention the Flamenco technique of "playing with your face"........:-)
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www.FlamencoChuck.com Compas Analysis, Music Theory for Flamenco, "A Flamenco Journey", etc.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Gecko, I know it is frustrating when you don't get the answer you expect or want. Your question is clear enough. The answers like "don't count, just listen" are very true, but not helpful. You want the stuff to fit your notion of it, I know where you are coming from.
Solea, Alegria, Solea por Buleria, Buleria, etc, are COUNTED in 12. Try to understand that bar lines and meter are something else. They should change depending on the tempo and feel, even though the math is the same. Rhythm is a feeling, and so rhythmic notation is designed to represent that. As Koella said, there are no "rules" for notating flamenco, which is unfortunate because there should be. The folks who have been transcribing flamenco over the years, I have to wonder how their sight reading and rhythm skills really are because a lot of transcriptions are lacking in the "rhythmic feel" department. Some rudimentary drum lessons would really help anyone transcribing flamenco into standard notation. Anyway, let me try to help you.
Solea, quarter note around 95 bpm. 4 bars of 3 as you said. (Toss your notion of 3 bars of 4, that is way off amigo.) So you have this "theme" on guitar: F major, Cmajor, Fmaj7, E major, OK? They can be strummed chords, arpeggio, melody, whatever. Each chord has it's own bar, you change on the first beat (down beat) of each bar. That would be changing chords on counts 1,4,7, 10, OK? But you can ACCENT within the first bar beat 3, in the second bar beat 3, in the 3rd bar beat 2, and in the last bar, beat 1 and 3. That corresponds to the COUNTS 3, 6,8,10, 12. Nothing wrong really with accenting different beats or even off beats (countratiempo) in each bar, but the phrasing is the same (4 bars of 3) . It depends on the thing you are playing, but you don't need to always be accenting 3,6,8,10, 12. Sometimes you just feel that, you know? You should tap your foot to the quater note.
Ok now, increase the quarter note tempo to 140 bpm. That is Solea por Bulerias. Now it is too fast to feel the chord changes on 1,4,7 10 like before, because the accents are more important. What happens is you start to change chords on the ACCENTS instead. F chord comes at count 3. The C chord at count 6, F major 7 on 8, and E major on 10. So count 12? It is still E major, and in fact takes on the feeling of a DOWN BEAT. So now you feel a more complex beat pattern, and the previous concept of bar lines and measure don't work. It is better to imagine new bar lines and meter (12, 3,6,8,10= a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 3/4, at EIGHTH note=140). BUT, at this tempo you can still get away with playing some Solea type phrases very FAST. The counting system helps to clearify this rhythmic abiguity by doing away with meter, and understand where you are mathematically in the compas. So this rhythm can go either way, phrasing on 1,4,7, 10, OR 12,3,6,8,10. If you are doing an escobilla and you know how the counts feel, you can shift back and forth between feels.
So now increase the quarter note value to 230 bpm. Now you have bulerias. Really silly to think of 1,4,7,10 as "down beats" at this tempo. Yet that is how it is notated typically. The truth is you have to feel only count 12 and 6 as down beats at this speed, and the idea of the quarter note value is also not right. The counts should be eighth notes, where the beat or quater note value is 115 bpm, that is how you would tap your foot. You can feel the 12 counts as two bars of 6/8, or two bars of 3/4, or even a bar of 6/8 followed by a bar of 3/4, where count 12 and count 6 are the "down beats" of those bars. And depending on the feel of the rhythmic strumming or falseta, the meter should be allowed to change. Watching a flamenco guitarist play, watching his foot and body language, reveals how he is feeling the meter, it changes a lot in bulerias. And it is not wrong for the palmero or dancer to feel it different than the guitarist. That is the beauty of compound meter. Most transcriptions don't take this feeling into account and put bar lines in the wrong place, as if everything is "SOLEA", just faster.
Solea, solea por bulerias, and bulerias can have the same count, even though the tempos are different. But the FEELING is different, and the notation should reflect this. Working with dancers helps you understand how the feeling changes as the quarter note value or "count" changes tempo, but the MATH is always the same. In fact that is a big challenge when you have to "morph" from one form into another by increasing the tempo. But when playing for CANTE, the down beat is always going to feel like 12, or 6, regardless of tempo. Counting and concepts like "four bars of 3/4" are only needed when working for baile. It is a way to communicate between musician and dancer, not a way to learn the feeling of the compas.
Posts: 432
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
quote:
-Nothing 123 456 789 10 And Nothing 123 456 789 10 , i can just imagine the communication: "- Paco I need something just before the Nothing but nothing you playd so far fitts, the Nothing needs to stand out then a pause and nothing until the dancer comes on and does something"
I liked it ,cool stuff....that was really good,but in this thread u have a tough audience.
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
yep tough crowd
but i did warn that probably noone else might find it funny
the secret to comedy is repetition, repeat the same bad jokes over and over one day il brake they resistance down and they will give in and start loughing just to shut me up
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Ricardo)
For Bulerias, consider the quarter note about 120 bpm, but tap your foot on every other count, instead of every count like Solea taconeo (which would be about 160 bpm)....
The key is - how many quadruplets (triplets, sextuplets, octuplets) can you play between counts, and at what tempo? What makes engineering sense - by keeping the basic tempo with your foot and coordinating note groups against it, you can learn to fit falsetas into the various palos, but you have to be aware of phrasing vs. tempo and engineering technique...
Also be aware that the tempo of the Bulerias of Sabicas (the last of the old school masters) is much faster than the "sentado" tempo of the modern Bulerias ( and the Bulerias of the pueblos, except - possibly - Jerez), where it is much more of a folk art). Compare the Bulerias of Paco de Lucia in Fantasia Flamenco (rapid, choppy, old style) with that of Cepa Andalusa or the Bulerias in El Duende de Paco de Lucia ("sentado", even though there are sextuplet runs).....
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo:
God, thank you, thank you, thank you. Now, at least I have a starting point.
As others have pointed out time, practice and listening will hopefully improve my understand and playing of this important aspect of flamenco.
For better or worse I'm anal about acquiring solid foundations and basic understandings upon which to build my playing skills. I simply have never been able to just "wing it." Doing that, at least for me, always causes problems down the road. This is why, even though my musical interest is in flamenco, I'm taking classical lessons before emerging myself fully in flamenco. I only intend to do that after acquiring some basics and after attending a beginning flamenco guitar workshop in Santa Fe next summer.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Guest)
Wow! Ricardo, that was great! Man what a kind thing to take all that time.
Gecko, I know you didn't ask me, but taking classical lessons to learn flamenco is terribly backwards. There's something called going out of your comfort level. If you really go that path, imo you're wasting years of your life and will end up just delaying the inevitable--learning to use your ears. There is a way to learn the foundation of music and it's called Ears, not classical notation. It might sound impossible to a really left brain person, but it can be learned just the same as anything else. Okay, lecture over!
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
One more perspective (I cover this more thoroughly in the Compas Analysis).
Flamenco is actually polyrhythmic (perhaps polymetric is a better term.) For example, consider Solea, with your foot (the quarter note) tapping every count,
The basic "question/answer" taconeo format (compas starting on 1) can be expressed in 4 measures of 3/4 time, the "classic" accentuation being on counts 1,4,7,10. However, dancers can ALSO accentuate 12,3,6,9, as well as the other formats (12,3,7,8,10), 12,3,6,8,10), (12,3,6,9,10) or even (12,3,6,7,9,10)
This would imply a suggested polymeter accentuation of 2 x 6/4 in the first case, or(6/4,3/2) in the others; the "slow" equivalent of (6/8,3/4) overlaid on top of the basic 1,4,7,10 phrasing; either the guitarist or the dancer can accentuate any variation, and it is the polymetric freedom that provides much of the spontaneity and tension in Flamenco; with all performers coming out together in desplantes (llamadas), creating a powerful "period" at the end of the metric sentence.
Good Flamencos keep the "takt" (the 3/4 count) constant - it is the glue that holds the compas together ("beat" is a little misleading here, since it refers to dotted quarter notes in the case of 6/8, but it is much more Flamenco to keep the 3/4 as the foundation even against the 6/8 measures, since the resolution will ultimately be in 3/4.
(Of course, Sevillanas is the exception, but it isn't really flamenco, right.....?)
With that, I think I'd better quit while I'm behind here.....(to use Brook's phrase)....
You might want to check out the Compas Analysis and Music Theory .pdf files on my site, where this stuff is covered in more detail.....
Best of luck with your journey through Flamenco, it is truly a great art.......
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www.FlamencoChuck.com Compas Analysis, Music Theory for Flamenco, "A Flamenco Journey", etc.
Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to BuleriaChk)
Dr. Chuck Keyser,
How're you doing? You're not usually a forummer, are you? Nice to hear from you. I've bought the Instructional CD set from you over a year ago and it really helps me lots as far as flamenco theory. It would be perfect if the video/audio exercises have slow-down versions of them. I would recommend it for any one. What are you doing now aday as far as flamenco? Are you teaching flamenco?
RE: New Member & Compas Questions (in reply to DavidT)
Hi, Dave, (and thanks for the promo, Tom W. also),
I'm debating getting back into live discussion of flamenco - I'm on flamenco-fenix and the Flamenco dancer lists - but here, I can go back and edit posts if my mistakes are too egregious.........:-); right now, I'm practicing hard to get my chops back from breaking my arm in a motorcycle accident last year.....
I teach flamenco, of course, but I require the course, which is usually overkill for most prospective students (who wants to do three or four finger picado, anyway?....:-) My hope is that with the proper intellectual tools, students can learn to scrape (at least traditional) flamenco off their own CD's. So I don't have many students (I'm not much for psychological hand-holding - and an absolute pre-requisite for me is that the student know palmas before they even begin........:-)
Best Regards,
Chuck
BTW, I'm getting old and cranky, in case you didn't notice.........:-)
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www.FlamencoChuck.com Compas Analysis, Music Theory for Flamenco, "A Flamenco Journey", etc.
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