Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Mundo Flamenco in Germany has taken delivery of two almost exact Lester DeVoe negras. Both the guitars are German Spruce over Indian Rosewood and have 655mm scales, but have a few minor differences of nut width, purfling and a few others.
I'd be fascinated if any one has the chance to play the guitars as it seems the guitars are almost identical in construction, and I'd be intrigued if there are differences between the two guitars.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to SephardRick)
The '82 Arcangel Fernandez blanca, which some of you may have heard played so well by Ricardo, is finished in lacquer. It is loud and brilliant. The finish is in perfect condition after 33 years.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to SephardRick)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SephardRick
My concern was about the lacquer finish checking.
That is a valid concern. If lacquer is applied incorrectly it is definitely prone to cold checking. I learned a valuable lesson recently when I followed the manufacturer's directions about application instead of sticking with my tried and true method. We had 4 guitars suffer cold checking. We replaced two of them and refinished the other two. We went back our normal method of using very thin coats and the problem vanished. I can't tell you how annoying it is to build a beautiful guitar and have the finish fail due to bad information.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to tijeretamiel)
That's reassuring about the lacquer finish.
I've had problems with older Gibsons arch-tops finished checking. It nice to know a lacquer finish, if applied correctly, can endure sudden ambient temp changes.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to SephardRick)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SephardRick
That's reassuring about the lacquer finish.
I've had problems with older Gibsons arch-tops finished checking. It nice to know a lacquer finish, if applied correctly, can endure sudden ambient temp changes.
Any finish including shellac can check if exposed to rapid dramatic changes in temperature. Old finishes including shellac frequently craze. I think it's due to the finish becoming brittle with age and cracking as the wood moves but I'm sure there are other causes as well. I consider crazing and cold checking to be different things. Cold checking looks like spider webs and crazing is much more fine like broken safety glass but I don't claim to be an expert on such things.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to jshelton5040)
Back when I was in college, I worked part time at paint store. We got a lot of complaints and claims from customers on lacquer products because of them not reading the label. The most common were nitrocellulose lacquer sprayed over alcohol, turpentine, linseed, and paraffin based primer coats. We were told by the manufacture (Parks) any quick dry finish over a slow curing material would cause alligatoring or checking. Fisheyes in the finish from high humidity was another problem. There was also, two guys spraying it in a cold garage and lite a heater. (R.I.P.). So, lacquer, it tricky stuff from what I learned in the product distribution side of things.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to SephardRick)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SephardRick
The most common were nitrocellulose lacquer sprayed over alcohol, turpentine, linseed, and paraffin based primer coats. We were told by the manufacture (Parks) any quick dry finish over a slow curing material would cause alligatoring or checking. Fisheyes in the finish from high humidity was another problem.
There's little doubt that using any finish involves a learning curve. Just ask anyone who's tried French polish for the first time. If you're going to spray lacquer or any other finish you absolutely must attend to water and oil in the lines, not to mention temperature, humidity, air flow, ventilation, etc. Otherwise you'll have constant problems with fish eye, pock marks, blushing, etc. I will never listen to advice from a manufacturer after my latest fiasco with cold checking. If I weren't so old I'd consider switching to polyester since I think it's the best finish available for the small shop builder.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to jshelton5040)
John, curious why you would entertain poly as a finish on an acoustic instrument? I've always felt, and many players agree in the electric realm, that poly is the most dampening finish out there. Since acoustic volume and reponse isn't the most important thing in the electric realm its kind of a moot point. However you can immediately feel the acoustic vibration difference and sound in an electric guitar finished in poly vs. thin nitro or satin etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
quote:
ORIGINAL: SephardRick
The most common were nitrocellulose lacquer sprayed over alcohol, turpentine, linseed, and paraffin based primer coats. We were told by the manufacture (Parks) any quick dry finish over a slow curing material would cause alligatoring or checking. Fisheyes in the finish from high humidity was another problem.
There's little doubt that using any finish involves a learning curve. Just ask anyone who's tried French polish for the first time. If you're going to spray lacquer or any other finish you absolutely must attend to water and oil in the lines, not to mention temperature, humidity, air flow, ventilation, etc. Otherwise you'll have constant problems with fish eye, pock marks, blushing, etc. I will never listen to advice from a manufacturer after my latest fiasco with cold checking. If I weren't so old I'd consider switching to polyester since I think it's the best finish available for the small shop builder.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to tri7/5)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tri7/5
John, curious why you would entertain poly as a finish on an acoustic instrument? I've always felt, and many players agree in the electric realm, that poly is the most dampening finish out there. Since acoustic volume and reponse isn't the most important thing in the electric realm its kind of a moot point. However you can immediately feel the acoustic vibration difference and sound in an electric guitar finished in poly vs. thin nitro or satin etc.
I don't plan to switch to polyester but if I did I would probably not use it on the top. Its being used by many builders as a pore filler which is one of it's most valuable properties. It flows out with no shrink back, cures really fast and is very hard and durable. If it damps the sound I suspect its being applied too heavy. There are some very well known and respected builders using it exclusively.
Posts: 6447
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to tri7/5)
quote:
I've always felt, and many players agree in the electric realm, that poly is the most dampening finish out there
I think the older nitro electrics also had less thickness than modern finishes. My MIM Strat has about a 1/8 inch of poly encasing it. Would like to spray my own nitro finish one day and probably put a natural (cold to warm) checking into it.
One of America's best known luthiers, who has seen the Arcangel Fernandez, points out that the finish is NOT lacquer, it IS catalyzed urethane, a much more durable finish.
Lacquers dry by evaporation, and in fact usually do eventually crack or check. Catalyzed urethane hardens by catalyzing the long chain molecules of urethane. It is a much more stable finish.
Catalyzed urethane takes more skill to prepare and apply than lacquer. Thus many American factories apply lacquer to instruments, despite its inferiority to catalyzed polyurethane.
The catalyzed polyurethane on my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca is still in excellent condition, though the top shows a few small marks due to the softness of the cedar.
I knew the finish on the Arcangel was catalyzed polyurethane, but fell into the lazy habit of calling it lacquer. Devoe is a highly skilled luthier, no doubt familiar with the practices of Spanish makers. I wonder whether the dealer made the same mistake I did, calling catalyzed polyurethane "lacquer?"
"Sprayed Lacquer Finish: This is the only finish I offer. I have not noticed a difference in tone from French polish. My finish is thinly applied and that is most important. A French polish finish will not make a poorly constructed guitar sound good; but any finish applied too thickly can deaden the sound of a well made guitar. The lacquer is offered with amber tint or clear."
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to tijeretamiel)
Lester about his personal guitar that he had taken to an exhibition (were visitors seem to handle exhibited instruments with incredibly dirty touch), and which afterwards made its way to me.
quote:
The overall appearance is a "gloss" finish but not like a factory gloss finish. Please do not expect perfection. My finish is as thin as possible to retain a good tone. I'll carefully buff the finish a bit more for you. I do not add wax, the shine is obtained by liquids (buffing compounds) containing micro abrasives.
One of America's best known luthiers, who has seen the Arcangel Fernandez, points out that the finish is NOT lacquer, it IS catalyzed urethane, a much more durable finish.
Lacquers dry by evaporation, and in fact usually do eventually crack or check. Catalyzed urethane hardens by catalyzing the long chain molecules of urethane. It is a much more stable finish.
Catalyzed urethane takes more skill to prepare and apply than lacquer. Thus many American factories apply lacquer to instruments, despite its inferiority to catalyzed polyurethane.
The catalyzed polyurethane on my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca is still in excellent condition, though the top shows a few small marks due to the softness of the cedar.
I knew the finish on the Arcangel was catalyzed polyurethane, but fell into the lazy habit of calling it lacquer. Devoe is a highly skilled luthier, no doubt familiar with the practices of Spanish makers. I wonder whether the dealer made the same mistake I did, calling catalyzed polyurethane "lacquer?"
RNJ
So according to this you have either a polyester or acrylic finish.
"Two-component polyurethanes consist of a polyisocyanate hardener and a resin, either an acrylic or polyester. Once combined, they result in a highly cross-linked finish."
If lacquer is applied correctly i.e. in very thin coats it is not prone to cracking or checking. I recently examined one of our guitars built in the early 70's which has no sign of checking or cracking. With the exception of the recent mistake I made by following manufacturer's instructions I have never seen any cracking or checking in the finish on our guitars in more than 45 years so I think your statement "Lacquers dry by evaporation, and in fact usually do eventually crack or check." may be a bit of an exaggeration.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: encanto
But I've had strange experiences with a guitar or two with sprayed lacquer that, although fully dry, was super easy to accidentally penetrate with a (relatively short and soft) fingernail. It did not look like factory finish or french polish. This sprayed lacquer was extremely shiny (like a mirror) but also extremely thin and scratchable. Something as simple as passing your nail on top, without any pressure, would already cause a dull line on the surface when viewed against a light source. I remember I was extremely puzzled by what they had used, and whether they had cured it properly. French polish seemed way more durable in comparison, although I do share the opinion that the type of finish is less important to the sound.
They were probably using something like Cardinal instrument lacquer. In my experience it takes forever to cure to a hard surface. I tried it once and will never use it again. I had to wait a month before it was hard enough to buff and even then it took many hours of hand work to get an adequate polish.
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to jshelton5040)
Going majestically off topic but I can say the DeVoe I played the nitro finish was thin but it felt fairly robust, more so than any FP'd guitar I've played.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Two DeVoes at Mundo Flamenco (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
So according to this you have either a polyester or acrylic finish.
"Two-component polyurethanes consist of a polyisocyanate hardener and a resin, either an acrylic or polyester. Once combined, they result in a highly cross-linked finish."
If lacquer is applied correctly i.e. in very thin coats it is not prone to cracking or checking. I recently examined one of our guitars built in the early 70's which has no sign of checking or cracking. With the exception of the recent mistake I made by following manufacturer's instructions I have never seen any cracking or checking in the finish on our guitars in more than 45 years so I think your statement "Lacquers dry by evaporation, and in fact usually do eventually crack or check." may be a bit of an exaggeration.
I'm no chemist, but as I understand it the polyisocyanate hardener supplies carbamate molecules which cross link the strands of the polyester, acrylic or other resin, converting it into polyurethane. One reference says "the resulting finish may be considered to be a single giant molecule."
No doubt I went too far in my comment about lacquer usually checking. I have no experience with thinly applied lacquer on nylon string guitars. But the older examples among my son's Fender, Gibson and Gretsch electrics have checked finishes. He says refinishing them would destroy their value.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread