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RE: Eventual end of guitars structural intonation issue
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
To me bending notes vertically by pushing up the string is more of a melodic modifying effect than warming the tone with true vibrato. It's a completely different objective. Using vibrato in music is a whole discussion in and of itself. It would be interesting to hear how Ricardo uses vibrato in flamenco. Vibrato can be used in various ways expressively, though not so exaggerated as in other styles. Sabicas for example, does the horizontal vibrato extremely rapidly. PDL used to do that to, later adapting a slower smoother style. Second movement of Rodigro Adagio and "cancion de amor" are a couple to checkout. I personally feel it is more than just a way to express intonation or cover the error of the 12tet coma (on thirds especially). I feel it is most importantly a RHYTHMIC expression...a way to hold a single note but still express subdivision or groove. It actually annoys me when I hear a vocalist do "chipmunk" vibrato way too fast for the rhythm of the tune, or simply warble randomly with no care for timing. Anyway, one guy that stood out to me in Rito y geografia for his expressive vibrato on guitar was MELCHOR DE MARCHENA. Anyway, I didn't mean to twist the topic toward vibrato as the musical tool it is...I meant that the simple fact the technique is AVAILABLE to fret players (even though RUI thinks it is different for fretless players, it's not and is in fact the mechnism behind intonating while playing) that it NEGATES the purpose of any sort of special compensation built INTO the instrument design, regardless of action height. In fact, the arguement that higher action is requirement for MORE compensation than low action is silly since with higher action vibrato is even easier to control. To make a final analogy, today singers can have the voice go through a processor that can autotune live during a performance, so long as the band is in tune it all sounds perfect. Why would they do that? For the same reason a player with careless fret work will prefer to have their notes "filtered" through an instrument that was set up with nicely compensated bridge or frets. The ear no longer needs to dictate accuracy of technique. Shall flamenco players eventually need potty training guitars for playing in tune, as they have come to need potty training metronomes for rhythm? Next up? "Agujeta Autotono" box.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 13 2015 0:05:01
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana quote:
This is what I really don't get...then the subject moved to cello...I would think "rolling" be used for slow vibrato and "rocking" as one would prefer to do on guitar, for faster vibrato no? But anyway I am not a cellist and we are talking guitar compensation here. The subject is actually scale temperance, but everyone keeps calling it compensation or 'compensating a tempered scale', which is an oximoron. Since the terms are being used interchangeably and incorrectly why not talk about vibrato? I thought your input on vibrato was the most valuable thing in the entire discussion. I think it is clear that "compensation", as discussed by luthiers and others here, is not for scale temperance but rather, STRING BEND, relative to INTENDED temperance. That being, string bend refers to ONLY SHARPENING of intended pitches...which are tempered "wrong" to begin with, only to be made worse, or obvious, SUPPOSEDLY!... ie compensation is intended to function as a sort of "autotune" filter for the player. Of course, you would be correct to say the new constructed instrument is now "tempered differently"...but the intention is the point. I take back what I said early, having given benefit of doubt to Rui about fretless vibrato, as I had actually SEEN players do what looks like "rolling" as described...a quick look at one of my fav's, yo yo here, it seems he does vibrato by hard "rocking" same as we do on guitar, which I would think is the more "correct" way to do this technique, regardless of thumb/hand postion. http://youtu.be/zNbXuFBjncw
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 13 2015 16:12:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Eventual end of guitars structur... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus Having went on Michael´s website in order to link to the above photography, I just clicked around a bit more and found his own sound samples here: http://www.ruhe-gitarren.de/en/gitarren/klangbeispiele/ I must admit that I had not been expecting such a lovely sound stage. Quite the `clay bell´like characteristics I know from Hauser guitars. I am impressed. Guess my statement that the only positive tendency of today being technological progress must include guitar luthiery as well (at least in terms of quantity with top shelf product). For there certainly have never been as much top notch guitars coming from so many different hands / small shops like these days. It is beyond me how so many builders get to such quality often for a large part over the autodidactic way. Admirable! Ruphus Well as a flamenco guy I am into a different tonal quality from instruments, so I stick with flamenco trad guitars as my thing. But listening to your examples, it's hard to be objective about the intonation improvements or not (need same string/piece on non compensated instrument to compare). I will say we can point out one thing...the same player on two different instruments, though the pieces are different, it is clear to me (and I hope to you too and others without an ear not full of guacamole) that the Villa Lobos intonates pretty much just fine, but the Albeniz as SEVERAL trouble spots intonation wise. If the same construction concept in is place for both instruments, I would tend to blame these spots on either : a. the music...to be objective we need the same piece again heard on both guitars. b. the tuning...I mean the initial tuning was not right, something is off and revealed in certain voicings. c. the strings are bad...not true and some bad string or two causing problem that needs to be changed, again for objectivity. If it be NONE of the above, I would have to say that the albeniz music is simply revealing the fundamental problem with the design. The problem being, sweetening one side of the spectrum sours the other end as in Bach's day. Since you mentioned Hauser, I must admit it have to be careful on my Fathers guitar left hand wise as it runs a risk of getting "too sweet" up high...and not surprisingly I recently learned Mr. hauser to have been extremely liberal with compensating the bridge. @Rui...yes I get it that the +/- is reversed when frets are removed, thanks for the vid. I still consider the technique and purpose the same to my point about intonation.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 14 2015 16:39:01
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