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RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
I'm sure it's a finer line than we like to think.... My whole life I've dealt with "Oh you like metal? I just saw Greenday!" To me Testament and Greenday are worlds apart but probably to 90% of the world it sounds the same....
quote:
You can't really mix those worlds. Keep the music where it belongs or the only pussy you'll be getting is the one on your dislexic thumb video.
Hahahahaha music is my go to! I'm no longer pretty and girls don't wanna talk about construction so my options are limited! Lol
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to JonathanMtz)
The whole rumba thing is pretty big in the south of France. There are quite a lot of gypsies of Spanish origin there too. I once got excited when I saw a poster for a "Gypsy flamenco show" at the bull ring in Sommieres. The show started with a fairly naff paella and deteriorated from there on. The worst was that it was completely obvious that the two dancers could dance flamenco and with great aire - at one point the band went silent and a dancer switched to a 12 beat compas unaccompanied, it was the highlight of the show, there was real fire there. In the break I asked one of the dancers why they were doing so much rumba (mixed with salsa). She saw exactly where I was coming from and explained it was the musicians who wouldn't / couldn't and suggested I pressed them on why they don't. She did (rather humbly) say her son played flamenco, but I never had the pleasure to meet him. He wasn't there and we didn't stay for the second half of the show.
For R n G, I don't buy their records but I'm happy if I hear that in a bar. It beats the hell out of a lot of other pop music (a genre where virtuosity has never been a make or break issue) that gets more air time on the radio. They've been successful whilst remaining honest so good luck to them. I prefer it to much of the crap that is sold as flamenco i.e. the GK imitation bands that don't play other palos. That is a darn right con. But why play something that takes a lot of effort to play if your audience will make no effort to listen. Most pop I hear here in the Caribbean comes out of a machine and follows the same sickly formula - all you need is a large arsed bimbo in an undersized bikini wobbling her butt on the beach and your canned music with attitude gets aired on TV.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to chester)
Yeah, I was quite diplomatic and I never use it as a "bully pulpit" to push the flamenco understanding agenda. I agree, that is not the time nor the place to lecture to the uninitiated...
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Otro problema que veo en esto de la marca flamenco, es que los gitanos de fuera de Andalucía lo quieren coger como algo suyo, cuando no forma parte de su tradición musical. Ahora los gitanos de Galicia o Aragón se declaran flamencos porque "es que lo llevan en la sangre" y te los ves por la tele intentando hacer pasar sus rumbas como flamenco, o imitando a Camarón hasta en los gestos.
Incluso hay gitanos franceses o portugueses que se dicen flamencos, supongo que dentro de poco veremos a gitanos búlgaros diciendo ser flamencos con pedigrí!!!!
Estos gitanos forasteros saben tanto de flamenco como los fans de Ottmar Liebert, pero contaminan los comentarios de vídeos del youtube con insultos racistas, criticando a los no gitanos, ensalzando a los no gitanos y, lo mas divertido, creyendo que algunos artistas payos son gitanos mientras insultan a los payos (facepalm.jpg).
Hace poco leí a una gitana catalana afirmar que el flamenco no tiene absolutamente nada que ver con andalucia
En fin, que entre el flamingo guiri y los gypsi Kings estamos apañados...
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
I used to think R&G plain sucked, but they've grown on me a bit. Anything good about them is what Gabriela does, IMO. Rodrigo's stuff is a dime a dozen.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
lenador i like that testament and green day - but both good - green day rocked when i saw em .alex scholnick(testament) epitomizes metal guitar for that day not very much the jazz dude
i guess the thing is if u dont like it move on is much decent music - i personally like Gabriela legs - trim and cool she hits the guitar nice ! no golpeador required
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Well, these two have lots of things going for them. They perfected their image, figured out what crowds like, and are doing it consistently. They have got nice rhythm. And for that they have my respect. Who cares if it's flamenco or not. They work hard and get paid for it.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Well, these two have lots of things going for them. They perfected their image, figured out what crowds like, and are doing it consistently. They have got nice rhythm. And for that they have my respect. Who cares if it's flamenco or not. They work hard and get paid for it.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
I dunno....they're kinda the reason I picked up a nylon string guitar so I'm thankful for that, and it is different than most other "fakemenco". But I just can't listen to it anymore.....something about soloing over chord progressions really just doesn't touch my soul anymore, even when done by my current heros and done well....I used to love that kinda thing too.....
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
I really like this particular tune. It works marvellously. These guys can really perform.
The point is not that they are using intermediate techniques, the point is that they are maximising those techniques to produce hot stuff.
It sounds incredibly virtuosic. I love guitar music that does that. Usually, the virtuoso stuff is so hard to play but this looks like a very long slide for a pretty short run.
They are terrific players. I don't think it's fair to compare them to Paco's trio because Paco's trio sounded all over the place a lot of the time. These guys are tight.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
Jeeezzz... Whats about all this complaining about other musicians and other music?!? Cant believe this thread is getting this long... Rodrigo & Gabriela might not be real flamenco, but it sure does get people interested in flamenco. In Spain people love rumbas! Many peñas have their on choir, and guess what they sing...
Lets please stop this, and enjoy the music we love... And stop disrespecting music other people love!
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
Well, these two have lots of things going for them. They perfected their image, figured out what crowds like, and are doing it consistently. They have got nice rhythm. And for that they have my respect. Who cares if it's flamenco or not. They work hard and get paid for it.
Thanks....totally agree with you. Its difficult to earn a living as a flamenco. These guys have a great act and have lots of work. In my opinion artistry and commercialism are two different things. I got fed up some years ago of spending months learning (for example) Barrios- catedral. Result - polite applause. Improvisation of "La Bamba" in rumba style. Result - Crowd goes crazy.
Yes it would be nice in an ideal world if everyone took more interest to educate themselves in flamenco and understand the beauty of the art....but its also a musicians job to entertain. If you can educate as well then all the better but you cant force people to understand flamenco any more than you can make them enjoy Opera or abstract painting. In Flamenco shows we all use Rumbas, Sevillanas, Alegrias and Bulerias to entertain the audience. I like Rodrigo and Gabriela because they dont pretend to be anything they are not, they work very hard and have an act with a wide mainstream appeal.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Ricardo)
Yeah, I know they do some flamenco and for purposes of clarity for the audience member, I tried to keep it simple and not get into a long description of the individual forms. Yes, I believe I said Rumba is a part of flamenco but again I was just making a point for simplicity's sake... I have to admire R&G, they have seemed to figure out what audiences want and don't represent themselves as flamenco puro.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Leñador)
I know that feeling. Personally, I started playing guitar just because I saw Paco playing Entre dos Aguas. The first time I heard those short scales in the finale I literally fell in love. I also started playing Rodrigo & Gabriela's songs with a friend of mine and now I'm really into expressive palos like Minera, Rodena, or Tarantas. In my opinion, Rumba is a good start for any person who wants to start flamenco, I know that Solea is the ideal but more people can relate to Rumba (or dance to it)
I saw these guys live and really enjoyed their set. The difference is these guys are great jazz guitarists doing a "show" that targets the general public. Whereas R&G aren't great flamenco guitarists. I'm pretty sure Frank and Vinnie take heat from purist jazz fans, but at the end of the day, they have the chops to hang with professional jazz players. That is the biggest difference to me. I personally don't care for R&G's act. I find her playing annoying and his.....well if I had a cute girl to play rhythm for me I guess I'd like it. But jeez, she should have actually studied flamenco at least a little so she could be a good rhythm player in that style. I understand they are "working hard" and travelling and at this point don't likely have much time for that. Just off the top of my head I can think of two musicians I know that work just as hard, making a living traveling all over the world without compromising their artistry in this way. But, they also earn way less money. Truth be told, I'd have been happy to have written the "Macarena" and been able to do gigs all over the world in spite of the tune I would have to play, so I'm not hating on R&G, but I'm also not a fan.
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Half assed pop rumba es la música de todos los gitanos ibericos no andaluces, solo aquí beben de unas fuentes diferentes, obviamente gracias al sustrato cultural y musical local.
Si Paco es culpable de haber acercado al flamenco a hippyes descalzos como Ottmar Liebert, Camarón es culpable de haber traído al flamenco amlosmgitanos forasteros y, en general, a público urbano de los barrios bajos. Camarón empezó a ser venerado como una especie de santo por gitanos de toda España y de otros sitios como Francia.
Flamenco, una música de minorías, y su marca es codiciada por muchos.
I saw these guys live and really enjoyed their set. The difference is these guys are great jazz guitarists doing a "show" that targets the general public. Whereas R&G aren't great flamenco guitarists. I'm pretty sure Frank and Vinnie take heat from purist jazz fans, but at the end of the day, they have the chops to hang with professional jazz players. That is the biggest difference to me. I personally don't care for R&G's act. I find her playing annoying and his.....well if I had a cute girl to play rhythm for me I guess I'd like it. But jeez, she should have actually studied flamenco at least a little so she could be a good rhythm player in that style. I understand they are "working hard" and travelling and at this point don't likely have much time for that. Just off the top of my head I can think of two musicians I know that work just as hard, making a living traveling all over the world without compromising their artistry in this way. But, they also earn way less money. Truth be told, I'd have been happy to have written the "Macarena" and been able to do gigs all over the world in spite of the tune I would have to play, so I'm not hating on R&G, but I'm also not a fan.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to estebanana)
Some time in the 1980s my girlfriend said to me, "Richard, please take me to the flamenco show."
I don't remember who the lead dancers were, but they were names I recognized. The show was in a good sized theater in San Francisco. The best seats I could get were at the front of the balcony. It was far enough from the stage that you couldn't really make out the faces of he performers very clearly.
Things went pretty well. Then a cantaor stepped forward to sing soleá, without a microphone. As soon as he opened his mouth the sound filled the big hall. I muttered, almost silently, "Good God!" then just as quietly, "Ole, ole." I gestured to my girlfriend to lend me her little binoculars.
She handed them to me and whispered in my ear, "Somebody special?"
RE: Rodrigo & Gabriela, what do you ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Some time in the 1980s my girlfriend said to me, "Richard, please take me to the flamenco show."
I don't remember who the lead dancers were, but they were names I recognized. The show was in a good sized theater in San Francisco. The best seats I could get were at the front of the balcony. It was far enough from the stage that you couldn't really make out the faces of he performers very clearly.
Things went pretty well. Then a cantaor stepped forward to sing soleá, without a microphone. As soon as he opened his mouth the sound filled the big hall. I muttered, almost silently, "Good God!" then just as quietly, "Ole, ole." I gestured to my girlfriend to lend me her little binoculars.
She handed them to me and whispered in my ear, "Somebody special?"
"Yes, somebody special. That's Chocolate."
RNJ
Must have been the show called 'Flamenco Puro' which ran in a theatre downtown. Fernanda was in that show and Juan Habichuela....and a bunch of greats.
The other dancers, were Manuela Carrasco, and Angelita Vargas, and as you know Farruco...the review failed to give the line up of all the guitarists, but I think Pepe Habichuela was also in the show.
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As for the important points made by three or four working guitarists that musicians need some popular entertaining music to bring to the stage, yes you nave to make a living and it's fine. You guys have artistry, taste, and background in fine music. You bring entertainment as a plus on top of that. Bands or groups like Gab & Rod seem to only bring the entertainment. For me, a listener who has been heavy into several kinds of music that requires deep listening, I find G&R super boring and the guitar solo against a rumba compas to me is really a super cliche'.
I think this is all well and good and the general public is served by this and musicians can make money doing music. But in the end I want and need a deep music or art that has the power and gravity to grant a kind of redemptive journey through the music. And while I can respect anyone who can make it through the journey of navigating the music business, that is how I primary see the journey of that music they play. I don't get a deeper satisfaction or it does not challenge me to change myself in order to listen to it.
Some music demands that you change yourself in order to get with it and allow it to take you on a journey, and the result is a redemptive feeling, a real liberation, some truth for the moment. And some music meets you where you are and does not make you step up and challenge yourself to understand it. The point of music is to operate as the former, but if the latter is needed as a part of the bigger vehicle, that's ok.
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