Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
 RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
|
|
|
quote:
You were the only one offended
I wasn't offended. Setting up straw men and knocking them down is not an offense; it just makes a bad argument in a discussion or debate.
Your statement, "Never heard anyone who understands theory saying that knowing nothing is the way to go," within the context of the thread implies that you thought there were contributors who thought just that.
Your statement, "The expression 'coming off as ignorant douches' is said in a friendly way," certainly doesn't read that way in your original post, but if that is your manner of expressing friendliness, I concede the point, strange as it may seem.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 31 2015 18:52:16
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to Morante)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
"Do you need to refine/translate your experiential theory into Western terms." Does your tails side of the coin need to be a Western theory. NO. But if you do study Music theory formally, your practice and theory will constantly align, evolve AND, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ARTICULATE IT to other people."
This seems to me to be eminently sensible. Musical theory facilitates communication between musicians: I have always regretted that I never learned it.
A tocaor needs to learn cante much more than he needs to learn musical theory. But the young guitarrists of today go to music school, because they want to be guitarristas, not just tocaores, so that they can collaborate with musicians from other genres. Many of them can "dumb down" their toque or use just enough to fit with a particular cantaor.
Too much knowledge is an impossibe concept (unless you have zero sensibility) 
John Mclaughlin, like him or not, is a very versatile guitarist. He is able to sit in with many different styles and types of musicians due to one reason only. As he says himself, in order to commune with or properly communicate with different types of musicians, he needs to learn and understand the "rules and regulations of THAT type of music"...whatever it may be. I refer to it as a "discipline", and for each genre it can be quite different. This is the key to understanding a type of music. "Theory" as discussed here is something else. Trying to apply it to ANY kind of music is sort of like attempting to translate a language....many things can be lost or miss understood. Now if you want to discuss or invent your own school of thought about it (like Sanlucar is for example) that needs to be made clear that one is attempting to translate one discipline via another, so that we can prepare ourselves for the inevitable communcation breakdown.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 31 2015 19:11:27
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to estebanana)
|
|
|
quote:
Fire when ready Gridley!
Another gem, Stephen, no doubt picked up from your multi-faceted life of travel, anthropology, reading, music and God knows what else. This line resonates with me because I served at the American Embassy in Manila, Philippines as a junior Foreign Service Officer at the beginning of my career, and I had read and studied about Philippine history, the Spanish-American War, and the American colonial experience in the Philippines.
At the Battle of Manila Bay, on May 1, 1898, Charles V. Gridley was the captain of the "Olympia," Admiral George Dewey's flagship leading the American fleet. Admiral Dewey gave his famous order, "You may fire when you are ready Gridley," and the battle was joined, leading to the destruction of the Spanish fleet and the capture of Manila. After the Philippine insurrection was put down, the Philippines became an American colony, then in 1935 a commonwealth, and finally on July 4, 1946, the Philippines gained its independence.
But Captain Charles Gridley will forever be remembered in American naval history for the famous order issued by Admiral Dewey, much as Rear Admiral David Farragut is remembered for running the mines at the Battle of Mobile Bay on August 5, 1864. Lashed to the rigging of his flagship, he is said to have ordered, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." (In those days, mines were called torpedoes.)
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 31 2015 21:08:09
|
|
guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Fire when ready Gridley!
Another gem, Stephen, no doubt picked up from your multi-faceted life of travel, anthropology, reading, music and God knows what else. This line resonates with me because I served at the American Embassy in Manila, Philippines as a junior Foreign Service Officer at the beginning of my career, and I had read and studied about Philippine history, the Spanish-American War, and the American colonial experience in the Philippines.
At the Battle of Manila Bay, on May 1, 1898, Charles V. Gridley was the captain of the "Olympia," Admiral George Dewey's flagship leading the American fleet. Admiral Dewey gave his famous order, "You may fire when you are ready Gridley," and the battle was joined, leading to the destruction of the Spanish fleet and the capture of Manila. After the Philippine insurrection was put down, the Philippines became an American colony, then in 1935 a commonwealth, and finally on July 4, 1946, the Philippines gained its independence.
But Captain Charles Gridley will forever be remembered in American naval history for the famous order issued by Admiral Dewey, much as Rear Admiral David Farragut is remembered for running the mines at the Battle of Mobile Bay on August 5, 1864. Lashed to the rigging of his flagship, he is said to have ordered, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead." (In those days, mines were called torpedoes.)
Bill
Irony as a device for rebuttal has as one of it's principle merits (or temptations) the effect of freeing it's practitioners from any responsibility to declare their intent or indeed any linear logical pathway.
Such a practitioner may thus feel themselves emancipated from the traditional expectation that references should be readily applicable to the core topic of a discussion.
The result is that free association becomes as intimidatingly arcane and 'relevant' a tool for the layman as expertise is to the practitioner. This can make any attempt at rebuttal seem uninformed or pointless.
Although I find this, as a rhetorical, gambit DEPLORABLE I note to my shame that I have often used it.
D.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 31 2015 21:44:09
|
|
Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to Bliblablub)
|
|
|
quote:
Oh god please. You already made the same mistake 6 pages ago. An analogy is not a theory. A theory is language that aims to explain a specific real phenomenon. It may include an analogy, which is just a logical figure, not a theory by the way - it may as well ****ing not. Paco de Lucia playing a musical figure is not a theory. A guy writing a book about Pacos musical figures and explaining how they work is a theory. Theories are not identical with their objects, they are the result of a thinking process trying to reveal the inner functioning of objects, but not the objects themselves. You should be able to distinguish between knowledge, theory and logic. Also this thread shows the state of our academia, which just makes me wanna rage and puke.
First off, reveal yourself Troll. Don't hide behind your anonymity.
Second, I don't have time to rewrite the works of the scholars I cited. This is a forum for flamenco guitar and had I known I was gonna launch a ****storm I would have directed my energy elsewhere.
Knowledge, theory and logic. Hmmm. Are we talking about the dictionary (and probably your) definition, or are we talking about each scholar's possible definitions arising in fields from anthropology, education, philosophy of mind, and many others?
I suggest a good place for you to begin is to look at knowledge as it is understood in the enaction paradigm outlined by Francisco Varela, or the learning theories of Jean Lave and Etienne Wenger. Theory? Raymond Madden offers as good a definition as I have seen. Logic? Are you talking formal logic as is used in debates or everyday logic (perhaps better described as reasoning)? Please help!!!
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 31 2015 22:40:39
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to rombsix)
|
|
|
quote:
1- Do we need to know / understand music theory in order to be good flamenco composers?
2- Can somebody with no talent be able to (if he has a firm grasp of theory) "scientifically" compose (by knowing what chords fit with what scales, etc.) something that will generally be accepted as "nice-sounding?"
Ok I covered #1 in my first post, now I'm going to attempt my thoughts on #2.
On question #1 I came out on the side not needing theory to play some flamenco.
I find question #2 difficult to understand, "Can some one with no talent....." Huh, what does them mean? I would pose the question a different way, because we all have a modicum of talent and if we focus and try we can play some flamenco. To get really good you have to spend a lot of time developing your talent, but I think of all of us hassome talent already, otherwise we would not be attracted to music so deeply that we try to play some.
It seems to me in flamenco we don't have 'Theory' with a capital 'T' but we do have guidelines, concepts and strategies that will help to develop talent.
Flamenco is a formal system of music with its own logic and formats distinct from other musics, but like all music based mostly in a Western music practice it has common harmony structures that are idiomatic to guitar playing! In other words the chords, chord shapes and scalar materials that classical guitar composers used are for the most part the same as what is used in Flamenco as a basic musical foundation. And Jazz as an extension of Western harmony utilizes the same rules and elaborates on certain parts of harmonic development.
This means al this stuff is compatible theoretically. In practice it might take some thinking to figure out how it really works together in a way that is musically beneficial for flamenco.
Flamenco has conventions in it's structure and if you understand them you can use some aspects of jazz theory to create extended ideas of harmonic color in flamenco. But A little goes a long way.
An example of a convention or concept that is very real and useful in flamenco playing is to play a falseta, then repeat the falseta, but give a change to the ending so you don't play the same ending twice, it's not very surprising is it? In Flamenco we are working for what? You all know, we are working for the Ole'. How do you get an ole'? You play a falseta that everyone knows and you pull off a variation or ending that surprises and pleases the listener, hopefully the singer you are playing for.
To change the ending you can mine the resources of jazz theory or classical theory or some other music. Say you want to make the falseta longer and extend it and then end it in a higher position on the guitar for a dramamatic sonority on the instrument. If you have some jazz knowledge you could extend the falseta by using the circle of fifths and playing around it through repeating the theme of the falseta in the chords of the circle of fifths in some inventive way, then reach up on the guitar and play the theme of the ending in unexpected place on the fingerboard. You might get an ole' for that if you crafted it well and grounded it in enough flamenco feeling and did not go too far away from the intent of the original falseta.
You can also change a falseta ending by changing the rhythm or timing of the ending, but that strategy is more related to how flamenco works and less about jazz harmony.
Knowing the fingeboard and some jazz theory also gives you more colorful inversions of chords to choose from and you can pepper them in as substitutions for more basic flamenco chords. This naturally points you towards learning how chord progressions have leading tones and bass notes that draw you through the progression. It can be helpful to know these to draw a listener through an uncommon chord progression and back into a more standard flamenco progression or voicing. Knowing how to construct a chord on each of the degrees of the scale of the palo yoo are working in is useful, and all the great flamenco guitar players, as has been stated, know this by heart.
So I took a try at number two and could go on for several more paragraphs about how jazz and flamenco can merge or how flamenco can be added to or taken from. But all I wanted to point out is that theory is fine, but it's the conventions of the formal system of flamenco that give flamenco it's singular sound. The conventions can be extended, but in my opinion the best way is to listen to great players and break down which strategies they use to create structures and then figure out how to use those strategies.
The questions I like to ask are how specific guitar players use personal and well known structures together to create a personal language of toque. Looking at flamenco guitar theoretically is not helpful to me, but looking at it structurally and learning the strategies good guitarists use to make a personal structure system is helpful.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 1 2015 0:39:17
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Music Theory: Why? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
|
|
|
quote:
anti-everything fanboys
Another example of a straw man. No one contributing to this thread has suggested that knowing nothing about theory is the way to go, much less being "anti-everything." There are different views on how valuable knowing theory is to playing flamenco, but it seems to me they are valid views.
This is an old rhetorical trick, attempting to win a debate or argument by claiming that one's interlocutor is what he in fact is not, i.e., setting up a straw man by calling him an "anti-everything fanboy." for example. In fact, those who engage in debate using this device are not having a debate with a real person. They are having a debate within their own heads between themselves and an imaginary being to whom they have assigned all those qualities which they wish to knock down. And the beauty of it is, they can win every time.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 1 2015 12:01:11
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.1054688 secs.
|
Printable Version
