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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'professional' ???
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I will be 77 the day before Christmas. We're taking a couple of weeks off to go to Costa Rica to celebrate Larisa's Masters Degree.
Happy Birthday to you, too, Richard, as well as to Arthur (Britguy). Both of you are a bit ahead of me, but not by much. By the way, what did Larisa get her Masters Degree in?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 15 2014 20:45:39
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to Xavi)
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quote:
At 10, an animal;
At 20, a lunatic;
At 30, a failure;
At 40, a fraud;
At 50, a criminal;
At 60, one begins advising friends;
At 70, one keeps quiet and is taken for a sage;
At 80, then said Confucius, "I knew my ground and stood firm."
(Quoted from Joseph Campbell)
Nice to have some of the experience and wisdom of the "older guys" around here...
Monologue on "The Seven Ages of Man," from Shakespeare's "As You Like It."
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.
At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then, the whining school-boy with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school.
And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then, a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth.
And then, the justice,
In fair round belly, with a good capon lined,
With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws, and modern instances,
And so he plays his part.
The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound.
Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 15 2014 21:33:22
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ric
Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 27 2010
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to britguy)
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I think I agree with Ricardo that what determines a professional vs. amateur, at least in our culture, is money. Some say that "if you do anything for 10,000 hours you become an expert". Maybe for flamenco it's more like 100,000 hours. It seems that those that become professionals tend to be driven individuals. Ask Britney Spears if she has more drive or talent. So, at some point it becomes a question of motivation, and I would say that the professional is driven towards the goal of not getting it wrong, and the amateur is somehow accepting of getting it right and perhaps moving on to the next piece. Does that mean that the professional is obsessive and the amateur lazy?
Another question is does the professional think of himself as professional or might he think of himself as lazy, which drives him to become professional?
Or does the amateur wish he was professional, but realizing his own laziness, accept becoming a professional amateur?
For myself, for whatever reason, (probably laziness) I am semi-content to practice and at times condemn my ignorance, and at times go (as Steve Martin sez) "hey, this guys, goooood! Knowing I will probably never be professional--that it's the journey, not the goal. Somehow that's ok with me, as long as I enjoy what I'm doing.
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Date Dec. 17 2014 15:05:39
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
I partially disagree with Ricardo's view.
While there may be some individuals in each category who are better or worse than their title should suggest, a professional is one whose principal source of income is derived from his professional trade.
When that is the case, one devotes all of his business time to such a trade (8 to 16 hours a day).
If one devotes all of his business time to that trade, then the likelihood of improvement in skills and knowledge is certainly superior than it is for one who needs to carve time out of his trade to "play".
However, as it is also the case for any profession, incompetence affects anyone who thinks he has nothing left to learn.
_____________________________
I think this gets at it, it boils down to total commitment.
But here's the problem with the basic comparison from the stand point of simply getting better; we all have different practice needs according to our time available and intentions. It worries me that people who are not intending to be pro compare their practice needs to pro practice needs.
I also seriously disagree with the often quoted Malcolm Gladwell maxim that 10,000 hours spent makes you master of something. I truly believe with the correct teacher and focused practice it is possible to achieve a fairly high level of playing in much less time than 10,000 hours. Interesting one of the people I heard speak about this idea was non other than the poet Maya Angelou, she said in 10,000 hours you have time to master many things.
I probably will not play the cello in public and make video, simply because I respect music too much to subject it to my caterwalling bowpulling and ape like grip on the neck. But I will say, in much less time than I thought I worked my skills up to another level by doing as my erstwhile teacher said, and doing it all really slowly.
If there is any difference between pro and no pro practice I think it must be that a pro has learned how to practice in a way that is super effective. Effective enough to get them performing well long, long before they reach the 10,000 hour benchmark. Which is why citing that absurd number bothers me. I have been get better in a very limited amount of time and with a chronic back injury because I figured out a way to break a task down and then reintegrate it to the whole technique. I think this might be where pros and amateurs alike can have common ground. I see it as slowing down to tech yourself how to do a task well and then adding that task to the others you have already learned. We all have that capability. I think it is more important to recognize that than make judgmental comparisons.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Dec. 18 2014 1:01:22
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
If there is any difference between pro and no pro practice I think it must be that a pro has learned how to practice in a way that is super effective.
Absolutely a great point, Steve, but one that can also hold true for amateurs.
I propose that it is not just "practice" (as the NY Cab driver replied to the young Lady who asked him "how do I get to Carnegie Hall?"), but most importantly the privilege to dedicate life to music. That means time to listen, think, read, dream, play and, yes.... even practice.
I spend an enormous amount of time reading case law and legal literature that has nothing to do with my area of practice, and find reading Churchill or even the Libretto of Verdi's Rigoletto most useful (I quoted from it and successfully in a case "pagarlo metà subito e metà ad omicidio compiuto" -pay half now and the other half after the murder will have been committed).
Professionals (in any profession) devote themselves to what they do, Amateurs devote what they can after they are done devoting themselves to their profession!
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Dec. 18 2014 1:49:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
Professionals (in any profession) devote themselves to what they do, Amateurs devote what they can after they are done devoting themselves to their profession!
Giacomo, you have just condensed the vast amount of print and paragraphs (including mine) that have been expended on this topic, as well as stripped out all unnecessary variables and assumptions, to state the obvious in its most concise form.
You, sir, have just demonstrated the power of Ockham's Razor on the Foro.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 18 2014 2:31:39
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Practicing - 'amateur' vs 'profe... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Professionals (in any profession) devote themselves to what they do, Amateurs devote what they can after they are done devoting themselves to their profession!
Giacomo, you have just condensed the vast amount of print and paragraphs (including mine) that have been expended on this topic, as well as stripped out all unnecessary variables and assumptions, to state the obvious in its most concise form.
You, sir, have just demonstrated the power of Ockham's Razor on the Foro.
Cheers,
Bill
I am in complete agreement, so long as we insert a "should" in front of the word "devote". Unfortunately, the reality is not always that way. Some pros are not completely "devoted" as you describe it, and plenty of amatures put way more time and energy into their hobby than anything else in their lives... not always with positive outcomes for their professions or personal lives. Thinking about ourselves when we were youngsters compared to now, we can replace the term "profession" with "student" and anything we devote our time to outside of school is a "hobby", like it or not. I for one couldn't wait until I got out of school so that I could get serious about "playing".   But it doesn't mean that was not totally devoted as a kid, nor that I am no longer having things to learn...I just define things interms of how I make a living. For me it was a "hobby" when I was in school, and now it is my profession. But I practiced WAY more back then that is for sure.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 18 2014 16:14:28
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), and with the time I had very efficiently. So much so that my right-hand position became very automatic, very comfortable - you could say permanent. In April I visited a prof and we looked at deficiencies with my playing new exercises for double arpeggios faster and smoother. He suggested (he's a nice guy - not to forceful) that my right-hand position would be better if I increased the angle to the strings positioning my fingers further back (giving more room for the pulgar to operate on the D and G strings). The new position made perfect sense not only for my double arpeggios but in general. However it took several months of dedicated and thoughtful practice to make the new position automatic and natural. (I'd had to check my hand position every minute or it would slip back into its old comfortable position). Only now 6 months later is the new position automatic and comfortable. 
