Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Flamenco (Affedis)

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macskye

Posts: 18
Joined: Nov. 5 2014
From: Scotland

Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Flamen...

Good Morning,

Sometime last year a friend of mine helped me find an old album with many of these pieces played amongst it. The recording quality was not great and I remember being not very inspired by the performances of it too. I seem to remember they may (or may not) have been very old recordings of Ramon Montoya playing these himself.

I was wondering if any members here have studied this book and made their own recordings played with a more modern technique? I'm quite sure I wouldn't be the only one who would be fascinated to hear these pieces played by some of the Professionals on this board.

Perhaps the reason why it is near impossible (from my experience impossible) to find anyone playing these pieces on youtube for example is because the book is manuscript only. When my laptop was working properly I had begun to transcribe the pieces into sibelius in an attempt to TAB them to speed up the learning process.

I can play the Fandango de Huelva quite OK until it gets to the Alzapua part. The Granaina (2nd piece in the book) is certainly doable aswell for me but the tremolo at the end would require a significant amount of effort!

Perhaps it would be a worthwhile challenge to interpret these pieces and see how they sound?

Sorry if this has been discussed already, I have tried a couple of searches and couldn't find much evidence here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 5:31:38

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to macskye)

Hi McSkye.
The recording quality was not great because of the time that Ramon recorded. Dont forget that he was one of the first Flamenco soloists and one of the first Flamenco players to be recorded. His recordings date from 1923 to 1936. In the 20s the recording technique was microphone to direct cutting into a disc.

Most players often have these recordings as a historical reference but dont usually learn whole pieces...I think mainly because there are too many other things to learn these days. Occasionally you will hear a player throwing an old falseta in. Tomatito uses an old Montoya falseta in his Rondeña.

A very good modern recording of some of these pieces has been made by Paco Peña on Flamenco guitar music of Ramon Montoya and Niño Ricardo. I would certainly recommend obtaining this recording if you would like to hear a digital recording by a professional player.
http://www.pacopena.com/es/disc.php?id=15

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 9:36:54

macskye

Posts: 18
Joined: Nov. 5 2014
From: Scotland

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to macskye)

Oh... Thank-you very much! I should have done a bit more research.

I really appreciate your explanation of the context of these recordings also. I will do my best to buy this album online if I can.

Once again, thanks for the swift and kind reply!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 10:47:20

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Pimientito)

Paco Peña’s Flamenco Guitar Music of Rámon Montoya and Niño Ricardo has now been subsumed (along with Azahara) into the double album Flamenco Guitar; and the last-named is actually cheaper on Amazon UK than the first!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2014 15:33:41

macskye

Posts: 18
Joined: Nov. 5 2014
From: Scotland

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

Muchos Gracias!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2014 8:53:50

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to macskye)

When I want to introduce a non-flamenco person to Don Ramon's compositions, I always play them the Paco Peña version. The quality of the recordings of Montoya himself seems usually to be an obstacle. But listening by myself or with other flamenco fans, it´s always the real thing.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2014 19:25:55

macskye

Posts: 18
Joined: Nov. 5 2014
From: Scotland

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

And so by inference you are suggesting Paco Peña is less "the real thing".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 5:15:58

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to macskye)

quote:

ORIGINAL: macskye
And so by inference you are suggesting Paco Peña is less "the real thing".

IMO the Paco Pena recordings are *exactly* what you want. Faithful renditions of the old masters works, with better recording quality and cleaner technique. Certainly they are 100% flamenco, its not like Paco is a classical guitarist 'interpreting' them or anything. Guitar sounds awesome too.

Obviously if you want 100% authenticity you go to source, but that's not what you asked for.

PS in terms of transcriptions have you tried Faucher? I'm sure he has transcribed some of these.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 7:20:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Blondie#2)

I think the point was that the original poster was not impressed with either the playing nor the fidelity of the old recordings. I would tend to agree with the fidelity issue, but NOT the playing. It's just my opinion of course, but frankly I am not as impressed with interpretors of his falestas compared to the original (melchor, N. Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco Peña etc etc), until PDL came along. (speaking time wise). He did the Rondeña note for note on his first ep and it is great (except for the tremolo which he did better with years later). Pepe Martinez did some nice versions of Montoya (he got to work with him once) but was an admited admirer. After all though, I find some the bad fidelity of the early recordings sort of charming. It's part of the whole historical package, along with the fact he had gut strings unlike our favorite modern players.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 13:11:13

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

That disc is also on spotify if one's tight on money

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 15:27:28

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

but frankly I am not as impressed with interpretors of his falestas compared to the original (melchor, N. Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco Peña etc etc),

I like Manuel Cano’s Evocación de la Guitarra de Ramón Montoya. It’s played on Montoya’s old Santos (lent to him by the latter’s widow), and the sound is simply amazing.

In general, Cano wasn’t my favourite flamenco guitarist, but I must admit he did an excellent job there.

I managed to get it on CD (Hispavox 7 94603 2), but it seems to be sunk without trace now.

Am I alone in being disappointed with the selection of flamenco recordings on Amazon Spain? It seems no better than the UK or the US.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 15:47:30

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Ramon Montoya - Arte Classico Fl... (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

PS in terms of transcriptions have you tried Faucher?

The staff notation book he has is Faucher.

I suppose you could try contacting Alain and asking if he still has the tab versions…

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2014 15:49:56