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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a flamenca - what do you think?
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)
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Stephen.
IMHO, you are right and wrong in your post.
Basically all builders have all kinds of bracing layout and have learnt from each other. I agree.
When I said Santos Hernandez, I meant the plan you can buy. 7 braces, no closing struts. The layout of the braces is closer to 7 piece fan Barbero and Reyes than to what you draw. Actually, it has nothing to do with your drawing.
Barbero made a lot of guitars with a bracing layout like Santos, adding 2 closing struts and a bridge strap. Then came Reyes, using almost the same brace layout, skipping the the closing struts but keeping the bridge strap and on some guitars he shaped the braces differently. Its just variations over Torres all the way through
I agree that you should learn from the old masters, but my knowledge is different than that TomB preaches over and over again on this forum. I was told that everyone was doing something similar, changing little things and never copying. 100% copying was not and to a certain degree is not the thing is Spain. Spaniards are strong invidualists.
Go ahead and build your Barebero51 and Reyes copies, but please stop lobbying those designs as being the only way. Because its so far from being true. All roads end up in Rome.
My bracing layout is very different from these two concepts besides being another variation of Torres. It has 5 braces layed out evenly and almost parallel and two closing struts. Pretty close to some older condes and it has a very thin bridge strap. Its braced flat and the final dome is around 2mm.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 14 2014 7:43:23
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders,
My point was not that you have to build to a plan, but that the basic concept is really similar from builder to builder. We are all talking about the same thing, except I don't "tune" the braces afterwards, I have no idea how to do that even though Tom seems to be able to do that.
The thing that bothers me is at this point yeah we all pretty much understand Spanish builders work a certain way, we get it. But I'd sure like to know what you copied the first couple of guitars? A Ramirez right? Does it really matter which plan or model you start with? The Santos with seven fans, the Reyes with seven fans a no closing bars or the Barbero or my Aunt Tillies Martin Tiple. Sheesh.
I'll stop advocating any plans whatsoever if you'll stop bringing all the Yanquis into the principles office for a spanking every time one of us mentions a plan. Everytime Principal Anders gets mad the bad behaved Yanquis have to stay after school and get scolded for mentioning plans. Ok OK I will write on the chalk board ONE Thousand times. ~~~~~NO REYES PLAN EVER> NO BARBERO PLAN EITHER~~~~~ God I've learned my lesson!
Personally I ain't got no plan and never had one. The dude who taught me how to build handed me a piece of paper, a ruler, a compass, a Tee square and triangle and said sit here and draw a guitar. And I drew a guitar and he corrected the drawing and I redrew it. Then I built it. Not everyone has a guy who tells them how to draw the guitar, so we mention plans so those who don't know how to draft their own model can get started.
So I have sinned and built the 51 Barbero half a dozen times as a learning project. But I swear to God I never built the dreaded "BlackShear Reyes" ( just kidding Tom)
Because my Reyes specs were taken from a 1969 Reyes oewned my a friend of mine in San Francisco that sounds better than the 2003 or what ever one Tom drew. I gave my Reyes drawing away to Foro member Juan the Bomb when I left CA, but I will be sure to caution him to never ever speak of it's evilness lest he be taken in irons to the dungeons and tortured for following a plan.
Juan, keep the plan a secret hidden under your bed and never let it see light of day. Fear for your LIFE!
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 14 2014 11:03:08
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Personally I don't think working from a plan is a good way to go. If you have NOTHING ELSE available to you, it's an OK place for a beginner to start, but...
The best thing to do at first IMO is to copy a really good instrument that you have access to. Buy a Hacklinger gauge, get a light bulb and some graph paper to trace the bracing layout, and get some of that moldable plastic to take impressions of the brace shapes.
You will learn so much more about how a guitar is actually put together than looking at a 2 dimensional piece of paper.
When you're looking at a plan, all you see is numbers and shapes. You don't get to flex the top, tap on the back to see what kind of tone it has, or play the guitar.
I started by copying a guitar made by John Park in Canada. He's no Santos or Barbero but he made a fantastic blanca and I guarantee you I learned more and got closer to making a world class instrument than I would have following a Reyes or Barbero plan. I also payed attention to many more things besides the top bracing. I had access to a Ramirez 1a Flamenco and a few other nice guitars but I picked my favorite one to copy.
When you build from a plan you are essentially doing what every cheap factory in Valencia is doing. You're trying to build a great guitar by following the same numbers and shapes as a really good model. Unfortunately that's not how guitar making works because wood varies so much, and capturing the soul of an instrument that way is next to impossible.
IMO 
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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Oct. 14 2014 11:30:13
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Stephen,
In my post, I did not talk about yankees, not even the ones that emigrated to the far east. I talked about 1 gringo and thats it. I did not include you when I wrote about chicken yards and the rest was general oriented stuff. Yes, you like to advokate the 51 Barbero which is fine. But here its been so for a while that everyone comming and talking about plans get Toms Reyes and Barbero 51 in their face and nothing else. And its twisting reality a LOT.
My first guitar was a Romanillos Negra (ah---- back to topics) A very well sounding and playing instrument. loud, fast and lively but with to much sustain. Its dificult to "apagarla" It continues playing by it self.
After that, I built homemade designs. What I call generic flamenco designs. Both 5 and 7 piece fans. After that, I built some Barbero copies, which I develloped (see other thread) I also made a Reyes hehe. (not my style of guitar) And finally I went back to making my own design. That design I like a lot and I have changed very few things the last, I dont know, 50 guitars or so.
Andy,
I totally agree. Plans have very little information. They are good for building boats and airplanes and other practical stuff. But for musical instruments, they just give you the idea that you get something sacred which you dont.
And there´s this added problem that on places like this one, you get the idea that the "old masters" (I love to write that  ) made one style of guitars. They did not. They all made different designs. Some a lot of different designs, some few and I havent seen a Reyes braces like the one TomB copied. Very similar, yes, but different in the shaping of the braces.
Look at the other Barbero plan that I posted. Its so far from the 51Barbero. Its a completely different concept producing a different sound and feel. And so on.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 14 2014 11:31:25
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Hey OP MiSz, are you a having good time reading this drivel? Welcome to guitar making, harbor of the most argumentative bastards on the internet.
Stephen,
I think that this is certainly a funny group of people.
And I believe that any novice builder should secure a plan they like and start from there to make a lasting impression of where they began their career building guitars. However, there is no really good Conde plan, that I know of, to start with.
Every good Conde that I have examined, has different top thickness's sanded to bring out the best tone. So, this means that any Conde build is going to have these thickness's to contend with.
So, my contribution was for the M. Reyes pattern that had essentially even thickness with brace shapes, sizes, and tapers.
If a majority of people wanted a Gerundino or Conde style plan, then I would be happy to try and donate it to the Guild of American Luthiers, but this requires a lot of work, and I'm not sure the GAL would be up to it.
So, what is your next project in flamenco?
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Oct. 14 2014 13:59:34
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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quote:
When you build from a plan you are essentially doing what every cheap factory in Valencia is doing. You're trying to build a great guitar by following the same numbers and shapes as a really good model. Unfortunately that's not how guitar making works because wood varies so much, and capturing the soul of an instrument that way is next to impossible.
I agree, in part, with your hypothesis, but there are many pro guitar builders who have ordered this plan from the GAL, even Spanish builders.
One of these Spanish builders constructed a guitar off this plan and brought it to M. Reyes, and Reyes thought the builder put one of the builder's labels in a Reyes guitar. So, the plan works for those who feel a need for it.
Also, I agree with trying to find a great guitar and experience its over-all qualities. This is always the best way to find a guitar's ultimate performance.
And Andy, since you mentioned the Valencia guitar factory, I'm sure Manuel Adalid would take exception to your condescension. He builds very good guitars, under his personal label, even though he has the Esteve operation that builds less expensive models.
His factory employs about 38 workers and they produce about 12,000 guitars a year, and he is constantly searching for ways to improve his product. He is working on a double top design, now, that shows great promise.
And I'm sure you would agree that a single guitar maker has many problems trying to get his guitars to market, just magnify that 40 + times for Manuel and you'll see the difference.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Oct. 14 2014 14:33:55
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
Stephen,
I think that this is certainly a funny group of people.
And I believe that any novice builder should secure a plan they like and start from there to make a lasting impression of where they began their career building guitars. However, there is no really good Conde plan, that I know of, to start with.
Every good Conde that I have examined, has different top thickness's sanded to bring out the best tone. So, this means that any Conde build is going to have these thickness's to contend with.
So, my contribution was for the M. Reyes pattern that had essentially even thickness with brace shapes, sizes, and tapers.
If a majority of people wanted a Gerundino or Conde style plan, then I would be happy to try and donate it to the Guild of American Luthiers, but this requires a lot of work, and I'm not sure the GAL would be up to it.
So, what is your next project in flamenco?
My next project in flamenco guitar making is to get as far way from it as possible. 
My next guitars are going to be a 18-1/2" long body of my own plantilla with small dimentions in the bouts and waist. My own plantilla but really inspired by Second Epoch Torres guitars I have been looking at and researching. I'm making the prototype now and I'm just gluing the back on.
The model is designed to work with a 640 scale specifically, but will also work with a 650. I'm going to offer them as my classical model in a shorter scale with smaller body and build it in Maple, Indian rosewood and Cypress as a standard offer, with the possibility of other woods if a customer wants them.
I designed this guitar in 2006 and saved the plantilla after having built it one time. I decided to revisit it and work it up. The first one sold for quite a cheap price one day when I needed rent money very badly. I asked 1400.00 and the guy only had 950.00, but my land lady wanted some money the next day so reluctantly I gave it over for 950.00. It was worth three times that,at least. I've never been able to find it again to buy it back, it was European Maple and had rosewood pegs inlaid with ivory circles I had made. It had a fantastic rosette. The whole episode made me so angry I never built that guitar again until now.
It was quite a pisser for me to find out the guy who bought it resold it soon after and turned a good profit on it. Then the guy saw me at a flamenco show and came up and boasted to my face they he sold it and asked could I build him another guitar, but this time a cutaway. One of my friends stepped between the fellow and myself as I was about to punch him in the face and said, it's not worth it. chill out.
So here is the coolest thing I said: "Ok hey, I can't build you another guitar for 950.00 but I'm sure if you trot down to Guitar Center they have a nice Cordoba thin body cutaway waiting for you for 950.00.
Then my friends told the guy to scram before I changed me mind about knocking him down. Then we had another beer and did not worry about it. The trouble really came later when I told this story on the Foro, ( it's in the archives) when I was bad mouthing this jerk, who really is a total hack guitar player, and one of the prospective customers was reading the thread and cancelled his order for a cutaway, he thought I was speaking about him!
I saw later another Foro regular guitar maker made him a cutaway, which looked to be a fine guitar, and the guy while not Paco de Lucia, is not a bad player at all.
The moral of the tale is make small classical guitars and charge more for them. And I recognize now I should have punched the guy. It would not have solved the problem, but a fight would have been more fun. And I would have totally taken him. No that the impresses anyone. It was 2007 and I'm too old for bar fights now, so I'll just make the guitar again and price them for gentlemen to purchase.
But this model will not be available in a cutaway. No Sirr-eee.
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Date Oct. 15 2014 14:57:02
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MiSz
Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Hey OP MiSz, are you a having good time reading this drivel? Welcome to guitar making, harbor of the most argumentative bastards on the internet.
Hey guys,
in fact i am having a really good time. Even if i did not get a clear answer like first do this and then do that. To be honest - i never expected that ;)
I'm learning so much from your discussions, because opinions about built plans are to me really indispensable.
I can understand what Anders is saying about this "spanish guitar" bias. I'm from germany and have been several times in andalucia to visit luthiers and play their guitars.
Here in germany ist a little bit similar to the us - not our mind but the guitar importers tell us what a good guitar is, because they select them.
Therefore the 'really great guitars' in germany are the conde, barba, reyes, and sanchis.
To be honest, it was funny to see how things developed since a german guitar seller started importing lesters guitars. Before that point nobody really talked about them, everybody who wanted to buy a new 'high-class' flamenco guitar went for a barba.
But since the last year it is almost impossible to sell a barba ;)
Nevermind, the following weekend(-s) i will cut the plantilla and do the bracing stuff, so i will inform you about my decision and we can have another talk about the great mistakes i have done ;)
Perhaps there is a parallel between guitar making and medicine: Right is whoever and whatever is capable of healing the sick.
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Date Oct. 16 2014 9:01:36
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
hose who visit this forum with the idea of building a guitar from as plan care. And thats why I have posted in this thread.
BUT, as usual, you and your buddy have to fill each and every thread in the lutherie section with your nonsense and endless out of topic babble.
How much do you know about Romanillos bracing on a flamenco guitar.... ¿Nothing?
But you had to (as usual) chime in and try to convince the original poster to do what you two guys do. Beause nothing else can be correct in the two narrow minded brains of yours.
Its like when I was a kid, my father had an Opel car. He considered everyone having someone else being stupid and he tried to convince them to get an Opel.......
The two of you are slowly but very effectively killing this lutherie forum.
______________________
You're hilarious Anders. We're not killing the Foro at all.
You just can't handle having your ass handed back to you. Look, I don't have to do what you say or hop in line with your pronouncements and opinions. And it's condescending of you to pull the "I live in Spain therefore I know more than you" card all the time, yeah we get it.
In the US there are builders who have learned in a long tradition and understand the Spanish school much better than you perceive them to understand it.
Then main problem is with your cherry picking and selective criticism of how myself and my buddy, if that is who he is, present our ideas. See I'm presenting pretty much what you present, but you focus on the parts that you disagree with and blow up the whole 'plan equals Yankee marketing conspiracy' thing without seeing that Tom and I also mention other ideas like copying a good guitar, or making your own model.
See I think the people who come here to get information are intelligent grown-ups who can decide for themselves who's advice to use, or how to take what they need from each makers opinions. They don't need babysitting and nobody is duping them into anything.
In your case, I think you might consider for a moment, that the Opel does not fall far from the tree.
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Date Oct. 16 2014 12:31:46
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)
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quote:
Nevermind, the following weekend(-s) i will cut the plantilla and do the bracing stuff, so i will inform you about my decision and we can have another talk about the great mistakes i have done ;)
Perhaps there is a parallel between guitar making and medicine: Right is whoever and whatever is capable of healing the sick.
Let us know how it goes.
I did have an Opel GT two door wagon when I was about 22. It was used, but it was totally cool. Problem was some parts in the front end suspension were badly worn and the car would shake and shimmy at speeds of over 50 miles per hour. Other than that is was a good car, it was metallic blue, and I mounted surfboard racks on top and it could carry a cello case with ease, but still not large car.
Some school kid on the way home for some reason stuffed his left over sandwich into the gas tank and the Opel developed a funny habit of cutting out when going up a hill. I got under the car and drained the gas tank and removed it. Then I opened up the huge drain/cleaning plug in the side and looked in there. The gas tank had a soggy shredded bolonga sandwich inside of it and it was clogging the fuel tube.
Well I wish I had that car today, not because I think Opel's are superior, but because cars it those days did not have a bunch of computerized garbage on them and you could work on then with wrenches and fix them yourself. It would be fun to drive it now.
After the Opel I had a fantastic 1959 Volvo sedan named "Lupe" that car was super cool. Bad breaks and it need some work, but it was Veridian green, it was the color of a green opel gem. The car was a chick magnet if the girls you were looking for were arty farty types.
I loved those cars, then I got a Mazda truck, 1989, but it had a piston engine. I was lucky enough to have owned a Mazda sedan between the Opel and the Mazda truck, but after that I had the Baby Blue full size Chrysler wagon we nick named The Shark. The Mazda sedan had a ****el Rotary engine, it was a solid solid bullet of a car.
I also had a diesel Gulf, which got great mileage but leaked oil. Truth is I love any old car that is old enough to not have a ton of computers on board and that has a roomy engine compartment that you can get in and turn wrenches.
This the the Opel Wagon I had, but I like many other cars too, I loved my 2001 Toyota Tacoma extended cab truck with the four cylinder.
I'm really kind of a old car whore, I'll take anything off the corner for the right price.
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Date Oct. 16 2014 12:36:43
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I sold it and bought a '67 VW Bug. Then I bought my brother's used Bug, so we could have two. We were Bug drivers for several years, going through a succession of them.
I always liked the old VW Beetle. When I met my wife in Arizona we both drove bugs. When we married and entered the Foreign Service we bought a brand new 1974 VW Bug and drove it to Washington, DC for the State Department's Junior Officer orientation program. Upon my assignment to our Embassy in Bulgaria we had it shipped to Sofia, where we drove it all over Bulgaria and much of Greece, including Crete. Likewise, we shipped it to our next three assignments, the Philippines, Honduras, and back to Washington. We sold it only after receiving our follow-on assignment to Malaysia, where we bought a right-hand drive car, as they drive on the left.
That '74 VW bug was easy to take care of, required little maintenance, and one could always find a shop in each country that could work on it if maintenance were needed. It served us well.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 16 2014 22:41:05
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I always liked the old VW Beetle.
In the late '50s Air Force, the wife drove the nice car, the husband drove the work car. In 1957 or so, my Dad sold me the cherry '39 Studebaker President he had bought from his father, and bought one of the first VW's in San Antonio.
I went with him when we drove across town to show it to his father. Dad showed him the gas tank in the front, the engine in the back, the reserve gas tank cutoff on the floor, noting the absence of a gas gauge. Grandpa made one more lap around the Bug, stepped back a pace or two and asked, "Where's the one for the other foot?"
Home from university for the summer, Dad asked me to follow him downtown to the VW dealer, and pick him up after he dropped the bug off for servicing. After circling the block far too many times in the stately black Cadillac, I parked at the dealer's place and went in search of Dad.
I found him with the service manager, a tall, blue-eyed blond man. They were reenacting aerial dogfights with hand gestures and narration. Werner had been a Luftwaffe fighter jock. They were re-fighting WW II.
Werner became the VW dealer in Corpus Christi, where Mom and Dad lived after he retired. Dad taught Werner how to fish in the bays and the Gulf, and they became fishing buddies. I asked Mom if they were still re-living WW II.
"Not around me," she replied. All five of her brothers were in combat in WW II.
She still talked with some asperity of "Kaiser Bill's" role in the European disarray that led to WW I.
While they still lived in San Antonio, she went along with the realtors' campaign to call it the "King William District" as they spruced up the old mansions of the German-American merchants and sold them. Mom's friend Mrs. Maverick, the widow of the New Deal congressman, still called it Sauerkraut Bend.
Further rambling: Did you know that the word "maverick" meaning "a person who refuses to go along with the customs or rules of a group" is actually the Mavericks' Irish family name?
The congressman's grandfather started off as a small-time rancher. It was widely noted that his herd contained far more calves and yearlings than could be accounted for by the number of brood cows.
The word "maverick" soon came to be applied to any calf before it was branded. They were thought to be in danger of receiving the Maverick brand if their rightful owner delayed in marking them as his own.
It didn't take long for the word to drift into meaning "non-conformist," which many of the Mavericks were.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 17 2014 2:09:22
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