Flamenco headstock type

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hopkinWFG

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 10 2012

Flamenco headstock type

Dear enthusiast, i realised that there are two types of headstock available for flamenco guitars..one with the acoustic type and another is with the traditional classical types...

i wonder which type is more durable ? i seen many traditional classical type headstock that cracks eventually thinking it may not be able to hold the weight of the tension.. as the traditional types which have gaps between for the rollers of the tuners to fit in... where the "acoustic" type are solid structure and the pegs runs thru the headstock from the back.

to you guys experience which of the type would be more advantageous in the course of being durable..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2014 6:14:42

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

Based purely on mass, the peghead should be stronger than tuners, all other factors being equal, but I'll let the luthiers here answer your question.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2014 9:17:51

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

I think maybe you are really asking 'which is most likely to break when dropped?'?

So the answer would be the tuner type because its not as strong as the peghead type.

But this should not be a concern unless you you're in the habit of dropping your guitar. And in any case it can be repaired. I recently repaired a Bellido that had suffered just such an accident.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2014 11:33:26

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

Great job, Kevin.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2014 14:02:13

hopkinWFG

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 10 2012

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to krichards)

ouch !! thats a bad bad fracture on the headstock ... Thank you for the information.. but do the peghead style headstock have any drawback ? other than the modern look of a flamenco guitar being altered? can the peghead style hold great amount of stability when using heavy gauges?

Thanks again krichards

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2014 14:53:40

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

Most guitars don't have pegs right?
There's a reason for this. They don't work as well as tuners.

Well fitted pegs are ok and work well enough for some people, but pegs often give trouble, sticking, slipping and difficult to tune. An expensive compromise is to have mechanical pegs fitted (Pegheds). They work very well.
But, even cheap tuners work well. That's why most guitars have them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2014 6:30:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to krichards)

quote:

Well fitted pegs are ok and work well enough for some people, but pegs often give trouble, sticking, slipping and difficult to tune. An expensive compromise is to have mechanical pegs fitted (Pegheds). They work very well.
But, even cheap tuners work well. That's why most guitars have them.

I dont understand why you write such things. Its ok if you dont like wooden pegs, but how many guitars have you built with wooden pegs and do you shave the pegs well, and use a proper pegdope?
What you write is just this cheapo internet myth thing. a few negative words that is easy to digest but which is absolutely nothing but repetition of the same old myth and therefor only negative in itself. It doesnt give any infrormation at all.
Pegs are what they are and you have to respect them for what they are. If not, stay away from them, but it doesnt mean that pegs are bad. They are just bad for you.

There are 2 important things about pegs:
1) That the builder takes them serious and does a good work on fitting them. I´ve seen many really really poorly fitted pegs on expensive guitars made by famous builders.
2) The owner of the guitar is willing to learn to tune with pegs and to maintain the pegs. The last is very simple, just add a bit of a good pegdope every odd time you change strings. It takes about 10 seconds a string.

Pegs are not for everyone, but reality about pegs is very far from what krichards just wrote. Remember, violins were tuned with wooden pegs only for centuries.

Back to the original question, I agree with the first answer by Escribano. But that said, I wouldnt think to much about it. Its few guitars that have problems in their headstock, and normally it can be repaired just as you see in krichards nice set of pictures

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2014 8:15:24

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

Glad you're back Anders! I see you gained back your energie....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2014 8:45:31

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I dont understand why you write such things. Its ok if you dont like wooden pegs, but how many guitars have you built with wooden pegs and do you shave the pegs well, and use a proper pegdope?
What you write is just this cheapo internet myth thing. a few negative words that is easy to digest but which is absolutely nothing but repetition of the same old myth and therefor only negative in itself. It doesnt give any infrormation at all.
Pegs are what they are and you have to respect them for what they are. If not, stay away from them, but it doesnt mean that pegs are bad. They are just bad for you.

Hey Anders you're being unfair to me here. I didn't say that pegs are bad, its just that there's a good reason they are not popular.

And, by the way, I have made three peghead guitars and fitted the pegs beautifully. I've also fitted Pegheds and repaired traditional pegheads. I know how to make pegs work ok?

But machine tuners just work better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2014 8:58:47

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

I agree. For what they are, well crafted pegs work amazingly well.
But tuners function better; let alone precision tuners, which are in a whole other league.

And when tuners are bad the situation can be fixed rather easily. Even when the roller holes are the culprit replacing tuners through sets with bushings will be easy and helpful.

When pegs are badly done or messed up however you are either in for large scaled treatment like letting pegs replaced and shafts implanted, or for makeshift and sore fingers. Let aside demands for accuracy with ruined pegs.

... Sometimes I have to excert such a power that I get concerned about either breaking off the peghead or splitting it. Have learned to lessen strain on the head by grabbing the neck at the nut, but the powers needed are still alarming.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2014 9:22:44

hopkinWFG

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 10 2012

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

Thank you guys for the passionate inputs and comments over apple and orange comparison.. its just a fun discussion afterall and i also feel the same amount of anxiety here...thus having said being passionate over things...

i may wanna try getting a peghead as it looks cool... really i still not sure if its totally reliable as the peghead having running thru the headstock... the close up picture attached shows as if the peghead running thru the headstock would eventually enlarge the pegholes in the long run if frequent tuning were to be perform on a peghead style ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2014 13:36:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

quote:

the close up picture attached shows as if the peghead running thru the headstock would eventually enlarge the pegholes in the long run if frequent tuning were to be perform on a peghead style ?

They will enlarge the holes over the years, then you can have the holes bushed and new pegs fitted as many times you want. If you get a peghead and you dont like it, its a relatively easy job to convert it to mechanical pegs from peghed.com. They work very well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2014 16:29:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to krichards)

quote:

Hey Anders you're being unfair to me here

I dont think so. Your first reply was very onesided and just mentioned the typical myth things, that so many persons say, just repeating what others have said and not knowing much themselves. The internet is full of that kind of stories and it surprised me that you went along that road because I know that you know much more than that.

If you from the start had added what you wrote afterwards, about your own experience, I would have found it to be an interesting and personal point of view, and i would have agreed and just mentioned that the problems with wooden pegs are poor fitting from the the start and owners not capable or willing to learn how to live and enjoy wooden pegs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2014 16:35:59

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

I had a great peghead Melero (1979), which had been the guitar of El Niño de los Rizos ( who accompanied Caracol.). The pegs were original, rosewood and tuned perfectly, without dope. I gave it to Oscar Lago and saw him, in an important flamenco festival, tune the E string to D and back up for the next cante without any problem.

The only regret I have about my guitar is that it does not have pegs

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2014 16:50:52

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to hopkinWFG)

quote:

i may wanna try getting a peghead as it looks cool

Well looking at the guitar is ok but you'll be wanting to play it too. So think carefully before you decide.

Actually, despite what Anders has suggested, I like pegheads as well. There's a beautiful simplicity about pegs that makes them very appealing. But you'll have a much smaller choice so finding a good instrument may be difficult.
Talk to Anders if you want a peghead!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2014 7:54:52

hopkinWFG

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 10 2012

RE: Flamenco headstock type (in reply to krichards)

not really looking into specifically for a peg head type.. but again if choice is good i will fall for it..

it seems that for a peghead style of headstock one has gotta get it from good luthiers?

i know of Francesco Narravo and am planning on his student blanca and on his website it states options with pegs or machine heads?

i have no idea if thats what it means by peghead style... if so true is it good enough of the quality to go with Peghead type of headstock by getting his student blanca ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2014 16:12:29