Flamenco with orchestra

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UnderTheSun

Posts: 46
Joined: May 10 2014

Flamenco with orchestra

Last year I was shown a youtube clip of a great song. It was a flamenco guitar playing alegrias with an orchestra of classical music. I remember in the start of the song it was the guitar and a string ensemble if I remember correctly.

It sounded so bright, joyful and happy! It's the most beautiful alegrias I have ever heard.

Does anyone have an idea who this could have been?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2014 21:02:59

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

I think it probably was the Concerto No 2 for Flamenco Guitar written and performed by Adam del Monte

Cheers
Dave S

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2014 14:56:16

Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2014 15:15:13

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to Thomas)

For me, the orchestra adds nothing to Tomatito. It's like a movie is playing loudly on tv in the background.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2014 15:58:08

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

For me, the orchestra adds nothing to Tomatito. It's like a movie is playing loudly on tv in the background.

I thought I inadvertently had two videos playing at the same time!

The sole arrangement for flamenco guitar & orchestra I enjoyed was Vicente Amigo "Amor, Dulce Muerte" (first video);
but I still find the song more persuasive without orchestra (second video)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2014 19:31:38

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

For me, the orchestra adds nothing to Tomatito. It's like a movie is playing loudly on tv in the background.

To me it adds nothing to flamenco, somehow it's just not my thing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2014 20:17:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

this is one of my favorite pieces recorded by Vicente.

http://youtu.be/9N7nSOOFToo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 15 2014 0:46:55

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to tele)

quote:

To me it adds nothing to flamenco, somehow it's just not my thing

I agree !....to me it is an attempt to bring flamenco on a more "commercial" scale discuised as a "cultural" thing.

ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 15 2014 9:26:40

UnderTheSun

Posts: 46
Joined: May 10 2014

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

It is none of these clips, and I agree somewhat that these to cultures of music does not mix very well, but in the song I heard they did! beautifully! At least in the first minute or so!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2014 21:14:40

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

Ricardo can tell you exactly which one, but I used to have a recording of Paco dL with an orchestra. Could be that.

The problem with orchestral music and flamenco guitar is not that the cultures don't fit well together, it's usually the way the orchestra is arranged. The arrangers usually don't create a synthesis between the guitar and the orchestra, but use it like a solo instrument and format it like a concerto, while at the same time not really thinking about flamenco.

The orchestration usually makes references to De Falla, Rodrigo and the early twentieth century. Or treats it like the orchestral versions of Sevillanas..some of which a lot of fun. It's usually done backwards, the orchestra acts as a unit to support the guitar. The way to do it would be to turn it around and have the guitar accompany the orchestra and small subdivisions in ensemble.

Usually the orchestration for these comobs sounds cheesy because they made by composer who feature the guitar as a solo, but don't l want to or can't negotiate the possibilities of using the guitar to make the guitar and orchestra into a cuadro; so they usually miss the point entirely and that is why it sounds like it is unneeded background chatter.

Of a composer made a piece for flamenco guitar and orchestra in which the the bass section is made to sound like Juan Talega sining por solea, the oboe a flute like Pepe Pinto singing a light fandango and maybe a crushing bit of siguiriya with Terremoto intensity and the guitar is woven through it as the accompaniment instrument it might be more interesting.

The aficionado with a sense of flamenco history would pick up the references to singers or what alludes to singers and different styles and palos and the guitar would nto be out of place. Then the guitar could have it's solo spot too. The other thing is that most composers don't understand compas or palmas in a deep meaningful way and how a where to use it, and that part of the music gets treated superficially.

These things usually sound like predictable pastiche of Spanish bullfight music with some guitar sprinkled on top like olive oil. But if they turned it inside out and dropped all that with the intention of orchestrating more like a cuadro plays it might join the two musical cultures in way they work. It seems like more of a conceptual intent issue in composition than a musical culture clash.

I know a professional viola player who also plays flamenco guitar and he goes back and forth between the musics everyday.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2014 19:58:30

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

Check out the Concierto del Fuego for guitar and orchestra by the Armenian/American composer Loris Chobanian that was written in 2001 for Marija Temo. Hardly flamenco puro but good stuff nonetheless.
There are some YouTube clips.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 2:25:28

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

That piece does more of what I'm thinking. It is a beautiful piece.

I can still see a composition that is even more cuadro playing like in structure that could work. As if a solea with guitar were orchestrated so the orchestra plays the dancer, singer and two or three palms players along with the guitar and the structure is more or less like a danced solea. Not verbatim, but laid out more like a flamenco performance. One thing that would also be cool is a chamber group instead of full orchestra.

The other mostly unexplored avenue is a guitar orchestra that plays flamenco. But for some reason that idea seems to rub guitarists raw...hahaha. Though I imagine unless super precise it might sound like buzzing cidadas.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 5:47:35

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

A violin playing letras, a guitar, and an anvil y no más.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 6:32:47

Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

I think this is a very well done orchestral flamenco work

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 9:33:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to estebanana)

Nice essay, Stephen. I think it's a major mistake to take away the guitar's best attribute, the strumming--as you say. Get a flamenco in there and let him strum to his heart's content.

Your favorite concerto (the Aranjuez, I'm being facetious), although I think it's good still, does rely too much on fff rest strokes that often just sound plunky and ugly and a bunch of inaudible fingerwork that's hard to play and doesn't work too well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 16:06:39

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to UnderTheSun)

Camarron "Dicen de mi" - I like this because the orchestra and conductor shut up and listen with respect!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 16:36:58

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco with orchestra (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The other mostly unexplored avenue is a guitar orchestra that plays flamenco. But for some reason that idea seems to rub guitarists raw...hahaha. Though I imagine unless super precise it might sound like buzzing cidadas.

Once every 17 years, when the soil eight inches below the surface reaches 64 degrees fahrenheit, a complete orchestra consisting of flamenco guitarists emerges from the ground, goes on a performance tour, mates, and expires after depositing eggs that turn into nymphs burrowing into the ground, where they will feast on roots, waiting for their debut 17 years hence. They appear to favor cypress, spruce, and palo escrito, though how they emerge holding fully-formed guitars (with golpeadors!) is, like black holes, strings, and other little-understood phenomena, the subject of much speculation and debate.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2014 19:23:44