RE: Question about compas

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Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Silence IS music but it's NOT a falseta. Tapao is not a falseta, footwork is not a falseta etc etc. You are wrong hombre.

You must be kidding. You are going to actually say with a straight face that a silence/rest is not part of a falseta? Tell that to Melchor.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2014 23:59:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

It CAN be but if it happens BEFORE a falseta begins or AFTER it ends it is not part of it.
IE beats 1-5 of a compas where the falseta BEGINS on 6.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 0:31:46

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Sr. Martins)

its the effective, or agreed compas

by that argument we can never say that Bulerias starts on 12 ...unless we all agree there must have been 11 beats of silence to arrive at our agreed starting point ... or we call 12 ( the aforementiond staring point) 1
so a bulerias will therefore be instead of

12-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-9-10--11
with its usual agreed accents on 3 6 8 and 10

become ...since we cannot now start on any count excepty 1

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 10-11-12
and the accents would be on
4 7 9 and 11

to make it sound the same ......
mathematially .....hmmm .. musically .. good luck with your theory of ridgid impracticality

morante mentioned seguiriyas, that some people think of as starting on 6..due to the accents ... as we now know it is impossible for this to happen as we havre to start on 1 ..
it could not be

6-7-8-9-10-11-12-1-2-3-4-5
with the accents etc..

it would have to be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12

and basically your lifr would be different ...
So to sum up , although we know that numbers before 6 exist and can be counted , we are using this system as a reference point , or image and can start effectively .. anywhere we want ...safe in the knowledge that our respective recipients of this information are using the same plan adn will correctly interpret any instructions given
so yes , you can start a falseta on the beat that we generally agreee is called No.6 in a crcle of 12 , where we generally agree all the accents lie
only a pedantic (excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous.) person would see things in that light

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 1:49:44

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Let me just start a popcorn factory.

Be right back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 14:27:23

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 26 2014 14:48:22

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 14:46:04

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

Kiko, you haven't understand anything.

i think i have understand everything

The very clear claim was that if you start on beat 6 ,according to ramon ,
""five beats preceding that beat in the compas. These five beats of silence or "rests" are therefore part of the falseta.""

to ""So by definition, beats One, Two, Three, Four, and Five, are part of the falseta""

So this would , by extension apply to any and all other scenarios ...I just mentioned bulerias as an example ...
Meaning you could , paste and copy ramons answer , and change the word Alegrias to Bulerias and the number 6 to the number 12 ..

therefore ...Here is how. If you say you are starting on beat 12, then you have established that there are beats One, Two, Three, Four, Five, six , seven , eight , nine , ten and eleven -Eleven beats preceding that beat in the compas. These eleven beats of silence or "rests" are therefore part of the falseta. A silence or rest is an integral part of a falseta. There are hundreds of falsetas that are comprised of a combination of rests and notes.

if Ramons beat six theory is correct , then it must follow for all other things ....he cant have it both ways ...

Unfortunatly that first statement is incorrect as a base , so everything after that is wrong as well, maybe you dont get it ...yet ..

I am basically saying that, practically speaking , you can start on beat 6 , or any other beat . the fact that it is known as beat 6 and there must be 5 other beats to get there is not important in this case ,.it a reference point .....get it ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 14:59:17

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

You are all trying to make practice out of theory.. it's the other way around.

The compas is always there and there's no obligation for everyone (singer, dancer, bassist, etc) to play a note on every first beat just to make a point of being in compas. That would be ridiculous.

It would also be ridiculous if we would talk about the places where we come in (falsetas, compas, two hand tapping, etc) as "oh, Iam starting this phrase on the first beat as everyone else...but Iam playing some silences here until I reach beat six".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 15:29:40

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

It was just a funny comment from Ramon, nothing else.
let's calm down a bit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 15:49:47

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to athrane77)

Oh I agree ... totally , and yet still retain the right to comment on the reason why this is not right in my spare time .....
if you put it out there its in the foro domain and can be replied to ...

I could have replied straight away on post one....but decided to wait until post 21 to entre the discussion ,, of this doesnt imply in any way that all the post before my first one in this thread have no value ...I was just waiting for the right moment to come in ... resting if you will ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 17:45:41

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

You're right kiko, ramon is right too, therefor i don't quite understand the problem.
we are just discussing 2 sides of the same thing, don't we?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 18:14:47

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

It's the battle of beard and stubble like I said before. Ramon took it there but chose to be cryptic about it even though I asked exactly that earlier.
At what point is a falseta a falseta? That's BECOME the argument. Is it when you begin a melody unique from compas strumming or tapao or anything else, or is it everything within the compas cycle in which your melody begins? Seems obvious to me but I suppose you could obscure your train of thought.....
"What is that falseta?"
Tap your foot for 5 AND THEN begin seems effing stupid to me. Just say "it starts on six, here it goes, do whatever you want from 1-5"
Really, your back peddling and trying to split hairs to save face.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 19:09:43

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador)

Muy señor Leñador , you would have to win the battle of the beard .....
Im more of a stubble person due to laziness,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2014 19:26:01

jimand

Posts: 45
Joined: Mar. 27 2010

RE: Question about compas (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Hi there,

Just curious, have the responses to your original post been helpful to you to date? I have a feeling folks have taken this in a different direction.
-jim

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 9:23:19

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

I think we should all agree where a song begins (it's first bar) even if we're not playing our instrument right from the start.

Yes, of course. I agree with you - a song begins on its first bar - even if we're not playing our instrument right from the start.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 16:31:19

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

This whole thing can easily be settled by simply writing out the music in standard notation. I have a mountain of flamenco guitar sheet music in standard notation that I have collected over a period of forty years, written by some of the most famous virtuosos in the history of flamenco.

Let us take an Alegrias falseta that Player X claims is starting on beat Six. Let's write it out in standard notation. We'll write it out two ways - CASE ONE and CASE TWO.

CASE ONE: First we have the staff. Then the key signature. Then the time signature - in this case three quarter time. Next comes the first bar or measure. This first bar must have a total of three quarters of time. For the First beat of the first measure we write in a quarter rest. The Second beat of the first measure is a quarter rest. The Third beat of the first measure is a quarter rest.

The First beat of the second measure is a quarter rest. The Second beat of the second measure is a quarter rest. The Third beat of the second measure has a note or notes.

The falseta has begun on beat One of the First measure. The NOTES have begun on the Sixth beat.

But wait - Player X protests - "No, no - the falseta didn't begin on One. The falseta doesn't begin until the NOTES begin. The falseta begins when the first NOTES are played."

Okay - fine. We'll write out the falseta again just exactly as you have just stated - we'll write out the falseta so that it begins when the first notes are played.

CASE TWO: First we have the staff. Then the key signature. Then the time signature - in this case three quarter time. Next comes the first bar or measure. For the First beat of the first measure we write in a note or notes to comply with Player X's statement that the falseta begins when the first notes are played..

Well, we needn't go any further. Player X has told us that the falseta begins when the first notes are played, and the falseta has been written out exactly as he has stated. And it has begun on the first beat.

So either way the falseta has begun on the first beat.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 16:34:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

We're talking about flamenco, and beat 6 of a compas cycle. Beat 1 of a bar has nothing to do with anything.
Falseta on 6 proponents gladly take the win.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 16:52:05

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Beat 1 of a bar has nothing to do with anything.

Hilarious.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 16:55:23

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I'll raise you one and say standard music notation has nothing to do with flamenco.
Escuchar es flamenco....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 17:21:05

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

True, being ignorant and uneducated is flamenco puro either Len

I like that but I don't have to be like that. 6 months ago I learned to read music and I don't think it's a bad thing. Learning is always great.
Everything is fine as long as you keep yourself away from the stick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 18:08:35

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Question about compas (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

Everything is fine as long as you keep yourself away from the stick

Why? I love the stick

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 18:45:09

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I cant see , why you cant see where the fundamental mistake is in case one and case two example ....i just dont see what you see ...
you will have a lot of problems with things like , Anacrusis etc ...
written music doesnt work like you want it to . luckily ...

time to leave , good luck with your six bars rest for the future ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 19:38:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Don't get me wrong I CAN read music, but keeping your nose buried in sheet music is not going to make you a better flamenco. I made that mistake the first year and a half.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 19:38:10

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

@Len
Yes agree. It's a good thing to learn the basics with your ears and after a long time
listening and playing you can learn more about theory. That's the way not the other way around.
Counting makes things more complex if you haven't the compás in your ears and body. I don't like counting, i hate it. But if you want to discuss you have to argue with music theory, otherwise everyone talks at cross purposes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 20:33:45

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Whichever beat the first note of the falseta may start on (e.g. beat six in Lenador, Andy or Ricardo's example) whatever one feels suits the moment could be played before i.e. it could be silence, tapado or played notes that are not part of the falseta, these variations happen all the time in flamenco.

Flamenco is entirely unlike classical music regarding the way in which flamenco does not follow a set arrangement; compas, falsetas, llamadas, remates, cierres etc.. and also fragments of these can be arranged spontaneously as the cante or baile inspires. Or they could be arranged and worked out prior to performing.

A good flamenco guitarist will know various phrases that work around different parts of the 12 beat cycle (the 3, 6 ,10, 12 etc..) He will know the rhythmic meaning of each phrase or falseta well so they can be acessed and used in the moment.

To the OP, it can be confusing at first, I would suggest learning something simple and common to start, some basic alegrias compas (rhythmic, accompaniment type strumming) and a falesta which comes in on first beat of twelve. It takes a while and some experience to fully understand the differences between the compas in the palos you mention, cante is often the key. Get a good teacher, start with the basics, it will become clearer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2014 22:36:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

This whole thing can easily be settled by simply writing out the music in standard notation.

No offense but it seems, based on your logic as written here, that you are in need of getting some lessons to help with both understanding of flamenco compas (traditional discipline that is), and your fundamental understanding of reading music as well. As mentioned "anacrusis" or a pick up note phrases need not have a complete bar on paper. What constitutes a "bar" in flamenco compas has been under debate for ages, and further, the concept of "beat" vs COUNT is also an issue of confusion for many. A good teacher could set you straight in no time. Good luck amigo.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2014 22:09:44

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

The issue you have illustrated, as I understand it, is if the rests, or compas played before the start of the notes, are part of the falseta. IMO, the answer is no. It is an interesting thought, and if you are actually demonstrating an alegrias falseta where the notes start on beat six, you are likely going to set it up by playing compas or resting for the first six beats, while palmas orientate the listener as to the placement of the notes in the compas. But, if you take that logic and apply it to other palos, such as bulerias, then you would conclude that all bulerias falsetas also start on "one"
While this view is easily understood, it is not traditionally communicated in this way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

The falseta has begun on beat One of the First measure. The NOTES have begun on the Sixth beat.

But wait - Player X protests - "No, no - the falseta didn't begin on One. The falseta doesn't begin until the NOTES begin. The falseta begins when the first NOTES are played."

Okay - fine. We'll write out the falseta again just exactly as you have just stated - we'll write out the falseta so that it begins when the first notes are played.

CASE TWO: First we have the staff. Then the key signature. Then the time signature - in this case three quarter time. Next comes the first bar or measure. For the First beat of the first measure we write in a note or notes to comply with Player X's statement that the falseta begins when the first notes are played..

Well, we needn't go any further. Player X has told us that the falseta begins when the first notes are played, and the falseta has been written out exactly as he has stated. And it has begun on the first beat.

So either way the falseta has begun on the first beat.

Ramon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2014 22:27:51

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Jason McGuire once had a video where he shows how to play compas while beginning on every single beat from 12 to 1, and sometimes even while beginning in between beats (like 9+). The exact same thing could be done with falsetas. Anyone who does not understand or grasp that this is possible, has such a shallow understanding of music, that he shouldn't even talk or have an opinion on matters like music, or anything else really.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2014 19:46:25

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ricardo)

No offense Ricardo, but you are in serious need of music lessons.

1) The concept of "beat" and "count" may be a source of confusion to you, but they have always been synonymous.

2) Of course an anacrusis need not be a complete bar. But your idea that it doesn't count as music just because it's not a complete bar is just plain silly.

3) "What constitutes a bar in flamenco compas has been under debate for ages."

This is as preposterous as it gets. A falseta in any rhythmic palo can be written out bar for bar in standard notation sheet music. I have a pile of books of flamenco guitar music with literally hundreds of falsetas by the greatest guitarists in history written out in standard notation exactly as they were played - bar for bar. There is no debate whatsoever about what constitutes a bar in a rhythmic palo falseta.

Because I feel so sorry for you about your lack of knowledge of music, I will give you lessons myself at half my usual fee.

Now I've wasted enough of my time with this. I've got rehearsals, a teaching schedule, and a business to run, so I have to say goodbye - I won't be posting or reading anything on this thread after this.

Adios amigo -
Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2014 20:38:03

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

I won't be posting or reading anything on this thread after this.

Por fin!!

Jeezzzz

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2014 21:29:47

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

But your idea that it doesn't count as music just because it's not a complete bar is just plain silly.

Nobody said it's not music!! They said NOT PART OF THE FALSETA!!!!!

Oy! Whatever, pride is a bitch huh? I love being wrong, it means I learned something......

A wise man once told me, if you think every single person around you is wrong, maybe you're wrong.....

That's my closing argument. Mmmmmmwah! Un gran beso!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2014 21:42:24