Quick Question About Transitioning Between Chords

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DrStrangelove24

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 13 2013

Quick Question About Transitioning B...

When changing chords, I'm wondering if it's common to plant more than one finger on a string in anticipation of the next chord.

So, for example, say you're doing E --> G7 --> F. I'm wondering if, when you do E --> G7, would you ever plant your first finger on the E-string-first-fret AND your third finger on E-string-third-fret so that when you do G7 --> F, you're first finger is already cemented in place? Does this break any rules of economy-of-motion? Or is there another consideration that would work against doing this?

Forgive me if this is a simple question - I'm a beginner and don't want to form bad habits early on.

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 14:00:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

Moving chords fast and clean is the biggest beginner obstacle IMO. I wish there was a full proof line of reasoning but there isn't. You have to just get in position fast enough. If you can keep a finger down in use already do it, but it all depends where you came from, and where you will be going.

In your example it doesn't make sense without knowing the exact voicing of your entire chord. In my experience the only finger that could (in theory) hold down the entire sequence would be the PINKY (4) third fret of the 4th string.

0--1--1--0--
0--0--1--0--
1--0--2--1--
3--3--3--3--
2--2--3--2--
0--3--1--0--

those are frets in tab, and here are the fingers you use 6 str -> 1st str.
024100, 324001, 134211(barre 1st fret), back to the first chord.

Notice the E chord is altered for a more "flamenco" sound with the pinky on F (the flat 9th). So lots of jumping except for that pinky.

A different voicing of the sequence could have you do the same barre chord shape for G (no 7th) and F where you could keep fingers 3 4 and 2 always on the same strings even for the E chord. The index acts like a capo moving 0-3-1-0.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 15:46:16

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DrStrangelove24

say you're doing E --> G7 --> F. I'm wondering if, when you do E --> G7, would you ever plant your first finger on the E-string-first-fret AND your third finger on E-string-third-fret so that when you do G7 --> F, you're first finger is already cemented in place?
Thanks!

In general fingers that occur in both chords can and do indeed remain fretted. Your example is a bit funny. Obviously when changing E>G7 your index goes to the 1th fret of the (treble) E and your 3th finger goes to 3th fret of the (bass) E because those notes ARE PART of the G7 chord....... but when changing G7>F there is no wish/option for a cemented index on 1th fret...... in stead the already placed index has to be lifted and re-fretted, making the transition from covering a single string (the treble e in the G chord) to covering multiple stings in full barre in the f chord (covering both e strings as well as the b string) as clearly showed in Ricardo's transcription.

In enclosed link you can find some interesting reading about the art of playing barre chords as well as my basic strategy when changing non-barre chords (my first post deals with barre chords and my second post explains the basic finger strategy and economy of motion when changing normal chords).

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=238113&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#238135

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 17:08:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

What someone once told me that was a big help was, it's usually ONE finger fecking things up for all the other ones when you switch chords, figure out which one that is and when you switch, only think about that finger getting to where it needs to go.

It can be a different finger depending on the chord but I found it to be pretty true and helped me quite a bit.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 17:25:23

DrStrangelove24

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 13 2013

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

Thank you everyone for the quick response! I'm very thankful to receive your informed commentary.

I should have written the chords out, because the G7 I refer to doesn't stop the E (treble) string and the F I refer to is not the full barre F - I could, therefore, be misstating these chords --> Sorry!

Here's what I meant:

0--0--0--
0--0--0--
1--0--2--
2--0--3--
2--2--3--
0--3--1--

This is common in Juan Martin's Solea Llamadas - the book from which I study. He calls them G7 and F, but I could see how that causes confusion.

Thanks again!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:07:26

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

quote:

I'm wondering if, when you do E --> G7, would you ever plant your first finger on the E-string-first-fret AND your third finger on E-string-third-fret so that when you do G7 --> F, you're first finger is already cemented in place?

No, you wouldn't plant anything unless that finger doesn't move in both chords.

IE
-----------
-----------
--1---0---
--3---3---
--2---3--
--0---1---

Your third finger COULD stay on the 3rd fret of the D string.

Your fingers should always just be hovering over the strings, like a 1/4" or so.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:14:07

DrStrangelove24

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 13 2013

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

No, you wouldn't plant anything unless that finger doesn't move in both chords.

Great - I'm looking to establish a working set of heuristics like this - helps a lot - thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:21:31

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

That's not a G7 in any way. Add a finger to the third fret fourth string and then you'll have the 7th without the need to use the first fret.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:32:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

quote:

heuristics

Thank YOU for my word of the day! lol

Rui's right.
This could be a G7
0
0
0
3
2
3
G7 always needs a good F

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:34:25

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to Leñador)

Likewise, E7 always needs a good dose of D.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 19:37:52

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to Leñador)

I totally agree. That has always helped me when presented with a new chord shape to try and master!

quote:

What someone once told me that was a big help was, it's usually ONE finger fecking things up for all the other ones when you switch chords, figure out which one that is and when you switch, only think about that finger getting to where it needs to go.

It can be a different finger depending on the chord but I found it to be pretty true and helped me quite a bit.

Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2014 21:25:06

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to sig)

Watching my students assemble chords is quite revealing. I tell them to consider 'scout' fingers (the long range reconnaissance fingers) and get them lined up in priority. Like the scout finger in E would be G#, in C, C; G7, low G or high F. But this may change depending on chord progression. In some ways, just identifying the finger reduces cognitive dissonance in such a complex action.
But in general I think I assemble the chord in mid flight so it comes down like a little chord 'stamp'.
For more complex voice leading chords, I may leave fingers hovering - never sliding into place - then re-placing them but in the end, it's a long haul with continually varying mechanisms that you'll eventually master. But for me, Scout finger and mid-air assembly is the way that produces most controlled results.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 10:19:30

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

There are some good "tricks" to learn chords.

The first and most important one is to know exactly which finger is going where, and from where it is going. In other words, be able to say, "1 finger is going from the E, 2nd fret, to the A, 3rd fret." This step is often skipped, but is often the root of problems.

The second is, try not to lift a finger if it is common to both chords. Keeping the finger down adds stability and reduces the complexity of the movement. Lifting it and replacing it unnecessarily can sometimes confuse the fingers.

If there is a big , but one finger will occupy the same relative position in the new chord, let it remain in contact with the string. Again, this adds stability and reduces the neurological demands of the placing the new chord.

When practicing a chord change, break down the new chord into combinations of the fingers and practice each permutation. For example, place the fingers 123, 132, 213, 231, 312, 321 in that order. Then place the 12 together, then 3, 13 together, then 3, etc. This thoroughly and quickly gets it into your fingers. I got that one from CGer Lare McDonald.

In flamenco, you often have to place all the fingers simultaneously, but not always. If you are playing an arpeggio or something like that, you might just place the bass note first and let the fingers catch up afterwards. This can make a complex or stretchy chord possible. Even in a lightning-fast chord, there is often a sequence of fingers, and they don't all just make a beeline for their places at the same time.

Another one is to practice the chord or change going up the fretboard, and then back down. You will want to keep the relative positions of the fingers the same. On the principle that variety aids learning better than monotony. If you keep playing the open strings, you might even "discover" a new "flamenco chord".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 15:37:27

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

try not to lift a finger if it is common to both chords. Keeping the finger down adds stability and reduces the complexity of the movement. Lifting it and replacing it unnecessarily can sometimes confuse the fingers.
In flamenco, you often have to place all the fingers simultaneously, but not always. If you are playing an arpeggio or something like that, you might just place the bass note first and let the fingers catch up afterwards.

Excellent advice, Miguel! My flamenco guitar guru in Washington, DC, Paco de Malaga, drilled both of the above into me. I am not a natural musician, and my guitar experience, from the age of 17 until eight years ago when I started taking flamenco lessons from Paco, consisted primarily of three (sometimes four) chord progressions, accompanying folk songs and Marty Robbins-style Western ballads. Paco had to rap me on the knuckles on many occasions because I automatically wanted to lift all fingers from the fret board and replant them, even when one finger was common to both chords. Likewise regarding beginning an arpeggio with one finger placed correctly before planting the others in their respective positions. I didn't want to begin the arpeggio until all fingers were correctly in place. I finally learned to do both without much thought, but that Paco kept me on was (and is) a testament to his infinite patience, and the fact that Marta and I have become very good friends with Paco and his lovely wife Ana, who teaches flamenco dance.

Cheers,

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 16:46:36

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Quick Question About Transitioni... (in reply to DrStrangelove24)

It might sound like conventional wisdom but don't leave everything to the fingers alone. In the same way your daily hand activities need the constant support and adjustment of arm/shoulder/body and even legs your string handling fingers need some additional support as well. (In)correct positioning/use of the thump, hand, wrist and arm can mean a world of difference and quite often changing chords (and other left hand actions) are paired with subtle (or less subtle) transitions of these settings as well. Even small changes in the way you position/turn your arm/wrist/hand can totally change the direction your fingers like to go. Bringing your arm/hand in a better position for/during a specific action can bring your hand/fingers closer to the action, giving them a more easy job and a more natural flow. Lifting your fingers, re-shaping the chord in the air and bringing your arm/hand in a better position generally happens simultaneously. The trick is to use nature, not to fight it. In all these situations your thump turns out to be multi functional wonder machine that can be incredible adaptive to the changing demands. In a documentary about the world music department of Rotterdam Conservatory there was a wonderful close up of the thump making it's wonderful dance over the neck of the guitar. Even after years of studying the guitar it was my unlucky seat at a Paco de Lucia concert (facing his (back)side) that made me aware for the first time one could even lift the thump every now and then when action demands so.

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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 20:10:25