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arpeggio
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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 RE: arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Was just wondering if its really nessacary to force the position to get the best sound
There is a good reason for adapting that position. Unfortunately, if you are used to something different it will feel awkward to change. Most players that adopt this position also do picados with bent fingers. The advantages will not be obvious for a LONG time until you get more comfortable and fluid, but the main benefit will be in the case of switching between techniques to make the music flow. Being relaxed is of course important as others point out, BUT you don't want to necessarily ignore other possibilities simply because you have gotten used to doing things "your way".
Just wanne make sure that we are talking about the same thing when we talk about "that position" to avoid misunderstandings. Because even in Gerardo's Encuentro Tremolo lesson, the relation between thumb and the rest of the fingers is not 90° , but more like 80° or so (i,m,a are slightly diagonal towards the strings and not completely vertical). Just about right to flow and switch to Arpeggio, Picado, etc ......
And the arm slightly raised and wrist not so much bended in Gerardos case too.
What I'm concerned about is that extreme position with bended wrist and arm resting on the body when he talks about things like 90°, and "parallel to the strings" (there was a similar thread with Picado from someone else with an awkwardly painful looking video recently where it looked like he is almost breaking his wrist).
Maybe OP should upload a video or pic to see how he plays and what his teachers said how he should play to avoid misunderstandings.
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Date Apr. 27 2014 6:35:19
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: arpeggio (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
See those historical paintings of lute and mandolin players?
How the players embrace the instruments with almost straight hands?
Like in this example from my hero Caravaggio:
I used to think like: "How unrealistic!", assuming the painter and his model had no clue about playing. Now I think it was me who had no clue, and that what is typically pictured there on the old canvas to display rather ergonomical posture.
Ruphus
What strikes me when i watch the old paintings is how much their right hand positions resemble the flamenco position, up from the angle of the thump to the anchor finger(s) touching the surface of the guitar. Modern day lute players adapt a totally different position, with extremely straight hands placed almost parallel to the strings, very much like self educated guitar players of all kind often end up playing (my brother plays like that as well with nails as big as scoops).
Interesting enough Spain is the only european country were the guitar line (guitarra latina>guitarra española>guitar) remained popular uninterrupted. As a result there is a direct line between the flamenco guitar and it's predecessors and you will be amazed how much they have in common, both from a technical as well from a musical point of view, from playing personal improvised variations on top of chord schemes up to the frequent use of rasgueados (the name Guitarra Española also referred to the way it was played...... with lot's of rasgueados).
In other parts of europe however the guitar line was temporary replaced/interrupted by the lute line. The old paintings seem to suggest that at first they adapted the techniques of the guitar line. Still when they picked up the guitar again they treated it like a new instrument and consequently had to re invented how to play it, resulting in other playing habits as the flamenco guitar player who still echos the uninterrupted link with the past, like the old lute players. Funny enough when the lute was picked up again by modern players they to did not adapt the old ways of playing the lute but once again re invented how to play it, using techniques like described above. Note that the lute is played with zero nail.
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Date Apr. 27 2014 9:21:24
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: arpeggio (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
In other other parts of europe however the guitar line was temporary replaced/interrupted by the lute line.
This is interesting to me who I thought that the lute was the predecessor of the guitar.
Having written above sentence, I made a quick visit to Wikipedia to take a look at what it says:
quote:
Although the development of the earliest "guitars" is lost in the history of medieval Spain, two instruments are commonly cited as their most influential predecessors, the European lute and its cousin, the four-string oud; ...
And then just for the interest, also besides saying:
quote:
At least two instruments called "guitars" were in use in Spain by 1200: the guitarra latina (Latin guitar) and the so-called guitarra moresca (Moorish guitar). ...
The Spanish vihuela or (in Italian) "viola da mano", a guitar-like instrument of the 15th and 16th centuries, is widely considered to have been the single most important influence in the development of the baroque guitar.
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What the angle of planting is concerned, my take on the matter goes like this:
For optimal learning condition a very shallow angle ( straight wrist / finger s almost parallel to the strings) is recommendable, as it allows a broad planting at minimized nail getting-caught factor. Planting and departure pathways will be well distinguished that way and support a pronounced / segmented and balanced execution for the learner.
Only because of the shallow angle resulting into extended flesh ramp, hence prolonged release time, for the sake of higher speed after establishment of clean picado / tremelo shall then the angle be rosen, as the wrist bending / approaching perpendicular planting will allow shorter passage.
Aside of speed accomodation with perpendicular planting, however, a shallow angle should always benefit accurate and balanced execution.
Ruphus
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Date Apr. 27 2014 12:20:03
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: arpeggio (in reply to dapperdan)
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And regarding praise for this very special instrument:
What a pleasure last night with restringing the ol´ Ramirez and taking the deVoe out of its case.
On the one hand the new strings crisp pleasure on the already excelling Ramirez, on the other hand the merrits of the DeVoe.
The latter had been resting at a kind of step-child status, as the Ramirez is so feather light and also recovered to really exellent sonic property.
And at first when switching to the DeVoe it feels imperfect somehow, but after only some minutes when your fingers find out how to do, you just can´t but appreciate this guitars very own and great qualities.
Though not the epitome of flamenco timbre to my ears, it definitly is a sonical uber specimen. Always just sonically perfect, with all you want dynamically, without dead spots and an even volume across the board, and definitly never crapping out on you when going hard.
What a pleasure of sonority last night!
Man, ... in terms of just fine guitars I am really a spoiled guy, outrageous with a still ongoing search for my very specially fitting axe. Which ought to be waiting for me abroad and of which I have been told these days that it might be coming my ways this summer.
If that thing be turning out the way it seems, I shall be the epitome of a spoiled guitar brat.
- Maybe at this point I should confess to not be worthy, but actually do think to even deserve it. Fully appreciating the artisanry and managing to tickling some round notes out of these heavens gifts to men.
Ruphus
PS:
Also found out last night how elevating a saddle with unevenly resting cardboard underneath will reduce response. ( The Ramirez saddle is too shallow while its groove being hardly deeper than a millimeter.)
The plain joining of the saddle seems to matter a whole lot. ( In this case the saddles bad seating resulted into lower mids noticeably reduced.)
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Date Apr. 28 2014 13:25:15
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: arpeggio (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
Just wanne make sure that we are talking about the same thing when we talk about "that position" to avoid misunderstandings. Because even in Gerardo's Encuentro Tremolo lesson, the relation between thumb and the rest of the fingers is not 90° , but more like 80° or so (i,m,a are slightly diagonal towards the strings and not completely vertical). Just about right to flow and switch to Arpeggio, Picado, etc ......
Well in your pic he is not playing the 6th string he is on the 3rd or so, but the angle will be essentially 90 deg....this is not geometry it is a guide to use the angle to get the point across. Gerardo has his guitar up quite high over the crossed leg and at almost the traditional position angle. For other players, that hold the guitar with neck more horizontal, the right wrist will have to necessarily bend in order to get the same angle of attack as Gerardo is getting. After all it is mostly about the angle of attack of the fingers to the strings...but often teachers need to give other visual clues about what "it should look like" if the nails are doing the right thing to make the sound, so they point out wrists and thumbs and elbows etc.
I would guess the teacher is trying to get him to do this position, as most players use it and it can be awkward to learn at first:
http://youtu.be/u1ibyPYcuwg
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Apr. 29 2014 12:07:53
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: arpeggio (in reply to dapperdan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dapperdan
hi all,
Was just wondering if its really nessacary to force the position to get the best sound or whether the examples are just exagerated.? As i realy struggle to hit the strings in this position and it involves bending my wrisst towards the bridge.
Cheers guys.
In my opinion the example is indeed exaggerated and not something to implement to rigid. Last weekend i tried to play an arpeggio using this strict position (thump parallel to the string, 90 degrees finger angle) which brought me out of my 25 year old playing comfort zone and wasn't a real pleasure to experience. Although it probably produced a slightly better sound i'm not likely to apply it in actual playing because it doesn't feel right to me and on top is not in line with my playing strategy.
It might be coincidental but 2 days after i tried this for me unnatural position i suddenly lost all functions of my right hand, it felt like it was fractured or suffering 5 fingers with tendinitis simultaneously (especially the thump and little finger) and the back of the hand (especially the part were arm meets wrist) was hurting like hell. It took over 12 hours before i could use some functions again. My father (one of the best classical/flamenco guitar teachers one could ever hope to find) did not object the possibility my hand fall out could indeed be triggered by me trying that playing position for a wile (aside from the noticeable tension i experienced doing it so rigid it's always risky to try new ways of playing).
Both me and my father favor a more natural lineup of the arm/wrist/fingers and we embrace natural hand behavior, relaxation and biomechanics. As far as arpeggio is concerned i believe we have similar outcomes using different routes. My father links it to the hand knuckles (the big ones where the fingers leave the hand). My father asks his students to put their right hand flat on the guitar in such a way the knuckles are positioned straight above the string that finger is going to play.... then lift the hand to make the finger tips/nails fall into position. So if you cover the treble strings with IMA the I knuckle is positioned above the g string, the M knuckle above the b string and the A knuckle above the e string. I guess individual players might shift the reference point a bit but you grasp the idea. Preferably choose a position were switching between playing tirando and apoyando demands no movement/effort...... in my best years i could play all my techniques from 2 sett hand positions that were so close to each other that other people could not see the difference... 1 position favored apoyando , the other tirando and i operated on the exact edge were they touched.
I generally use a strategy which i call my walking hand position, the naturally relaxed hand i have when i walk...... if all is well that hand has a perfect lineup with arm and wrist and on top the hand and fingers are totally relaxed (not a single muscle is in use). My strategy is always to bring that hand as close as possible to the action without moving a muscle.... only the very last necessary adjustments are made by altering that hand (which could indeed involve adapting a manageable wrist angle to bring the finger in a better playing position). For arpeggio i probably end up in a similar position as my father by bringing my walking hand to the place of the action, placing the fingertips under the matching strings. The big plus is that both your hand and fingers remain totally relaxed and natural with naturally curved fingers (relatively naturally, let's call it fit for playing) and on top the individual fingers enjoy similar actions/reactions when it come to plugging. An even bigger plus is that your fingers will automatically fall back in this preset position/condition every time you end fast actions with fast and intelligent relaxation... if you know when and how to relax your hand the fingers will automatically fall into walking hand position time after time simply because biology force them to do so (the only way to fight nature are slow actions and muscle tension, but if you pair correct muscle action to correct relaxation half of the work can be done by nature/gravity). One of the ideas of the fingers placed in a 90 degree angle towards the strings is because it's the best angle for transposing energy, not wasting energy on lateral moves...if you have a different angle part of the energy will make the finger slide sideways along the string before it actually plugs it, often not noticeable at normal speed but very clear if you study biomechanics slowly with eye for detail. The closer you come to a 90 degree angle the more energy goes into the string. Changing the position of the arm but also minute rotations of the arm can highly alter the direction the fingers moves and can bring them in a better angle to the strings without corrupting the natural line up arm/wrist/hand to much.
As far as the thump is involved you could try this amongst others: Place all 3 arpeggio fingers on their matching strings simultaneously using a correct hand position like mentioned above (each finger must have it's own free line of movement while the other 2 remain on string). Now plug the base note(s) with the thump (with those 3 fingers still on string)... that will give you some idea how to position/use your thump making it fall naturally). Obviously it's a good idea to keep the thump out of the action ratio of the fingers as well (probably one of the ideas behind the suggested thump parallel to the string advice) but there are many options and depending on your biology, playing habits and/or the situation the thump can even be within their action ratio if you now how to deal with that/exploit that (arm rotation based thump actions can actually push the arpeggio fingers away from the strings first after which they fluently bounce back (often i use that energy to plug the first note(s) rather then doing it with the finger itself... the thump bounces away automatically as well since it's part of the same moving hand unite). I use various ways to play arpeggio but they all use natural moves, biomechanics and well dosed action/relaxation. If you relax properly during the thump part your hand and fingers will automatically fall back into the natural and known walking hand position, ready to fire another arpeggio. It takes a couple of years to master.
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Date Apr. 30 2014 21:36:06
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