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Posts: 1607
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
Gitano names
I'm trying to find out what the exact background of Gitano names like Luís el de la Juliána Joaquín el de la Paula Manolito (el) de María etc. is. AFAIK Roma (Gitano?) names can be transmitted patrilineally as well as matrilineally, depending on which clan/family "feels" closer. Do these names express kinship? Or are they arbitrary?
I assume the names you quote in bold are their mothers, to distinguish one Luís, Joaquin, Manolo, Paco etc. from others with same first names (PDL mentions this in Light and Shade documentary).
Gitanos have the same kind of names as other Spanish people, i.e. given name followed by father's family name followed by mother's family name: Francisco Sánchez Gomes, Manuel Moreno Junquera, Antonio Carmona Carmona.
The examples you give are all nicknames, just like Paco de Lucía. This came from when he was a kid and there were loads of kids called Paco running around the neighbourhood, so if someone asked which Paco do you mean, you'd say Paco de Lucía (Lucy's Frank) or Paco de la Juana (Jane's Frank) or whatever, as the case may be. His brother Ramón didn't have that problem (not as many Ramóns) so for his stage name he used the hometown, which is pretty common too, and so became known as Ramón de Algeciras (Raymond of Al Jazeera).
So in the list you give above, Luís is Juliana's Luís, from round the corner, not the other one, María's Luís,who lives down the road, and so on.
Those are the basic ones. When you get into the 'apodos' (made up nicknames) then it's not about the mother but perhaps some physical characteristic or something. But that gets a bit esoteric when the nickname is passed down to a great-nephew or someone who doesn't share that same physical characteristic.
If you sing, it's good to name yourself after an item of seafood; as a guitar player, go for a vegetable.
sometimes also a vegetable name is used like tomatito or potito(altough I'm not sure if this one comes from word patata) Some use location, like ramon de algeciras
Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?
maybe 'cos the dad's were out at work and the mum's were at home scrubbing the laundry, cooking potaje and minding the kids.... I'm guessing, I don't really know.
I am wondering though if the names you quote in the first post are also handed down so if someone becomes a notable artist their descendants use the same "el de la ....." name even though that name is not actually their mother, but their father's or aunts or grandparents' mother
Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?
I think its just practical. In Spain, it was and still is the women that take care of the kids. In gypsy familys its completely like that. So people are used to relate the kid to the mother.
I am wondering though if the names you quote in the first post are also handed down so if someone becomes a notable artist their descendants use the same "el de la ....." name even though that name is not actually their mother, but their father's or aunts or grandparents' mother
I'm inclined to agree. In that way it sort of becomes a "brand name".
plenty of names, but what's really interesting is the stories behind them. What the names mean, where they come from, and if they were "inherited" from family members etc.
also Tomatito, I think his name came from his grandfather El Tomate
When he was 12 he won the Granada Concurso as El Niño Caracol, but that's as far back as I know about. Here's a photo taken in the 1940s with Lola Flores--easy to see why they were big movie stars. Wow, what a girl!
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I read (I don't remember properly) that when he was a kid he knocked a pot of snails off the stove and his mum yelled at him. Or something like that.
Edit:
quote:
His father "Manuel Ortega Fernández" was known as Caracol Viejo. Don´t know why
Found it (it was his father who threw a ball and hit the snails):
La procedencia de su apodo lo explica el cantaor citando una anécdota vivida por su padre, del que lo heredó. "Estando un día mi padre cuando chico en Cádiz tiró un pelotazo a una olla de caracoles que se estaba guisando. Y como mi tía dijo '¡Sabía que esto iba a pasar, Caracol!, de ahí este apellido que se convertió en nombre artístico", asegura en ABC el 25 de octubre de 1964. Caracol - diario de Jerez
So in the case of Caracol there's proof" of the heritability of artists names. But, as we have seen, there're at least as many names pertaining to male as to female relatives. So to rephrase my original question: Does this have a specific background (as in the patrilineal vs. matrilineal Roma name giving in the Balkans, I mentioned above)?
quote:
Gitanos have the same kind of names as other Spanish people, i.e. given name followed by father's family name followed by mother's family name
This of course is due to absolutistic/enlightened bureaucracy which forced the Gitanos to adopt conventional "payo" names (as happened with the Jews as well in a lot of European states in the 18th century). To this day in Romanian Roma-dialect the first (christian) name is called "gadje" ("gadjo" is equivalent to "payo").
quote:
Found it (it was his father who threw a ball and hit the snails)
Where did you find that? I remember reading that too, somewhere, but can't find it anymore, so maybe you can help.
This of course is due to absolutistic/enlightened bureaucracy which forced the Gitanos to adopt conventional "payo" names (as happened with the Jews as well in a lot of European states in the 18th century). To this day in Romanian Roma-dialect the first (christian) name is called "gadje" ("gadjo" is equivalent to "payo").
I think you are confusing different types of gypsies. The ones in south spain speak Calo, NOT Romany. I don't know of any Calo names vs proper spanish names for gypsies but I am sure someone might think of someone with one. In the case of the examples above, we are talking NICKNAMES or artistic names for spanish flamencos, both gipsy or non gipsy. Even the first known flamenco performer had a spanish name Antonio Fernandez, and nickname "El Planeta". Nick names need not carry through any family type rule such as fathers mothers or uncles. For example, Melchor's brother played guitar but was called "Chico Melchor". In my neck of the woods the Romanian gipsies tend to use Italian mafia type names for kids that stick through adulthood (bobby, jimmy, dino, vito, nico, etc)
I think you are confusing different types of gypsies
No Richard, I'm not confusing them. My question was wether or not there are parallels.
Caló evolved from Romanó (Romany) from about the 15th Century on. Today it no longer can be considered Romany but is a so-called Para-Romany language Interestingly the Diccionario de la lengua española de la Real Academia Española lists Romanó as equivalent to Caló... The European Council defines Roma as encompassing Roma, Sinti and Kalé...
plenty of names, but what's really interesting is the stories behind them. What the names mean, where they come from, and if they were "inherited" from family members etc.
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like tomatito or potito(altough I'm not sure if this one comes from word patata) 
Caló evolved from Romanó (Romany) from about the 15th Century on. Today it no longer can be considered Romany but is a so-called Para-Romany language 
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