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RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Jeff Highland)
Jeff,
We still give away more than We sell, and have had test done all over the world, and have never lost yet ever. Martin Blanes the Spanish guitar player posted a blind study on the MacNichol guitar forum too. last but not least if We had the money to do test no musician cares about anyway. We would make products, and give them to people like You to test.
Pick Your lab, and pay them, and I will give you the materials to test.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Michael Jay)
Michael,
Glad You brought this up Ted posted 3 reviews on the agf the first one said he was impressed this cherry picked review was his second, and was more about wanting saddles with no lowering of the wood base material. Well when We mass produce them We will make drop ins. I sent the two he had tall so His tech was able to set the test saddles up for his testing. His later third review says this product is worth the money go read them, and next time post all of them too not just the one that might,be a little negative. Ted at least waited until He tested them to post a review Estebanana
Right now all anyone knows is plastic, and bone. We can educate anyone on how to work with it. It is not hard to work with just very different. If We just sold a saddle as coated. Much like a molded plastic Tusq, but oversize You would not even know where to start. if we gave you a lapped to thickness, You still could not make a saddle, and would just ruin it. Not because You are stupid but just because you have never worked with it simple as than. In time anyone will know as much or more than we do on working with it too.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana)
Estebanana,
In time when people are educated a little more they will be able to do all of it if they want to. Customers almost never make their own saddles, so We will always do theirs. When We start to sell to builders We will have to train/educate them.
The only proprietary material We have is a base material, and I do not understand why you say the pyrolytic carbon is proprietary. If it was we would not say it is even carbon much less what kind of carbon.
You just do not know what Your are talking about, and will have to live with these post too.
In time when people are educated a little more they will be able to do all of it if they want to. Customers almost never make their own saddles, so We will always do theirs. When We start to sell to builders We will have to train/educate them.
The only proprietary material We have is a base material, and I do not understand why you say the pyrolytic carbon is proprietary. If it was we would not say it is even carbon much less what kind of carbon.
You just do not know what Your are talking about, and will have to live with these post too.
Well sir good luck to you selling $100.00 saddles, I wish you the best.
BTW the _Your _ is spelled 'you're' - Glad to see you're going to educate the public and all the luthiers. You may want to begin with learning grammar before you teach.
And I know exactly what I'm talking about; I also await your detailed and thorough test results. Which won't mean diddly squat because it's all so subjective. And if you ever thought of winning me over as a customer you lost me with your condescending come ons.
My prognostication is that your business will pick up when cows get scarce.
I am not the owner or even an employee yet. Bone is a huge problem tone, volume distortion etc., (string gouging not so much on nylons). I have said over, and over it is pyrolytic carbon, and it is not proprietary at all. Same carbon used in Mechanical heart valves too.
People pay for tone, and have to hear this first I understand that too. We have put saddles on a trash guitars, and they were respectable guitars after. Name any other product that can do that
No problem at all to lower the height you just need 320, and then 600 grit silicone carbide sandpaper, and bone saddles on a steel string wear out, or need repair in about 6 months to a year if You play it. Yea bone is a prefect scam for luthier's too You are right about that.
You are just ignorant nothing to be ashamed of but You will learn, and you will have to live with Your post forever too.
Wow ok,
First of all can you clarify for all us Foro members your true and valid affiliation with this company? You state you are not the owner or an employee, yet you speak as if you are directly involved.
Second, yeah my posts will stand against yours as the common sense stance as to why guitars are working fine without these saddles. You are spewing out a lot of misinformation about what is real and what is not real. You also don't seem to have a grasp of what flamenco guitar making is all about. You also tell an untruth when you said a saddle will wear out in six months and refer to saddle setup as a luthiers way of ripping off customers.
I read through al your jive and I can't fathom how a person as whacky as you could run a company, so I assume you are blowing smoke. I could go on, but I won't l waste your R&D time so get your Nutty Professor coat on and go back to the lab nutter.
What is it Yogi Bera said: It feels like Ruben deja vu all over again.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana)
Estebanana,
You are an ignoramus period, and everyone reading your post already know it. You get what You pay for. VW makes great cars but You do not get Get Ferrari performance with a VW. Bone is going to go the way of the flat Earth society.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana)
My name is on the patent, and I will be an employee someday. Steel string saddles if they are played have to be repaired or replaced in 6 months to a year. longer if You do not play everyday. The fact that no one else has commented about Your review of something You have never seen or heard is what bothers me. I plan to show You post to everyone I know so they can laugh at you too.
Wow, I think you really need to lighten up a little bit..... If you want people to try your product you might want to try a friendly aproach. I also think that your saddles are quite expensive comparing them to the price of a bone saddle. There are some very higly respected builders on this forum(Estebanana is one of them) and I am pretty sure they´ve experimented with other material for them to know what they are talking about. Maybe you should send some samples to some of the very fine players on this forum(for free!!) so they can test them for you and show us how their crap guitars suddenly turn into fine instruments due to your product.
I have joined the forum to provide a bit of interchange between this forum and the Delcamp classical guitar forum running much the same thread.
What is common between the two threads is a general disbelief that the saddle could make as much difference as reported (or any at all) and a fair bit of emotion on both sides of the discussions.
Let me be clear where I stand. I use a BD saddle and love it. I believe on my classical guitar it makes a noticeable and beneficial improvement. Given the similarities between classical and flamenco guitar construction I am assuming the sonic improvement would also occur on a flamenco instrument.
There is, however, one major difference between the discussion on the Delcamp forum and here. On the Delcamp site there are 5 people who have actually tried a BD saddle and ALL report improvements. Unless I have missed it the discussion on this thread seems to be about what people expect might occur based upon either experience with other saddle material or with guitar making or playing generally. I would have thought the discussion would be more meaningful if a few interested and open-minded members actually tried a BD saddle and reported back rather than dismissing it because it does not fit into a pre-determined view of what should happen. Hence, I encourage members to make more real life observations before offering opinions.
Kind regards from the dark, mysterious classical world
Peter
P.S. I have no relationship with Jim Guthrie or Obligato
Your argument urges us to spend money first and asking questions later.
This is the con mans dream come true.
One can apply the same logic to astrology and expect the same testimony from it's adherents. Having spent a lot of money few want to recognise their foolishness.
I'm a member of the Decamp classical forum too and I'm not convinced.
Ok so if you want to send me a few $100.00 saddles I'll try them, but so far it just sounds like the usual guitar world voodoo technical BS.
There's nothing wrong with being a skeptic, it does to not make me guilty of anything except not being taken for a fool. If this saddle material is so great, time will tell. In the mean time how do I know someone did not just buy a supply of sheet stock of this material and cut saddles from it? And is charging a hefty price for an item that costs little to make and getting away with it while it is a novelty?
I'll wait and see if the stuff works and then I'll wait longer for more than one company to offer it at a competitive price. In fact I'll wait until a company in China makes it and sells it on eBay for a 10th of the price. And you can bet that will happen.
If this stuff is so cool how come the bigger supply houses and guitar companies don't promote it? Fender, Martin, Breedlove etc, are they raving over it? Is Stewmac offering it? When the reliable industry standard supply houses offer it as a material I'll check it out. It means that it has been vetted though a process of customer approval as a good product.
If this company really wants to sell saddles they should not challenge luthiers making the common sense argument for not wasting money on $100.00 saddles and pony up some samples and respect.
I would be happy to take a free one and post my professional opinion However I don't think I could ever use them on the guitars I make or my own personal guitar if they can't be modified or filed down. Saddles need to be tweaked pretty often on new guitars and I always adjust them before I send them out to get the ideal playability.
You are an ignoramus period, and everyone reading your post already know it. You get what You pay for. VW makes great cars but You do not get Get Ferrari performance with a VW. Bone is going to go the way of the flat Earth society.
Awesome, Because I'm ready to sail off the edge of the world just like Cortez' and Lief Erikson.
I have said several times here they can be modified like any other saddle material. You can't use metal files. Files with fine grit, and or silicone sandpaper. The material is not hard. It is brittle, and a metal file will chip it.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Your argument urges us to spend money first and asking questions later.
This is the con mans dream come true.
One can apply the same logic to astrology and expect the same testimony from it's adherents. Having spent a lot of money few want to recognise their foolishness.
Hi guitarbuddha
Respectfully, I have done no such thing. What I have suggested is that it would be better for the members of the forum to make comment on the efficacy of the BD saddles after one or more members had actually tried them, rather than assuming they either don't work or don't provide value for money, and on the basis of an assumption or belief to that effect, then dismissing them.
I would be happy to take a free one and post my professional opinion However I don't think I could ever use them on the guitars I make or my own personal guitar if they can't be modified or filed down. Saddles need to be tweaked pretty often on new guitars and I always adjust them before I send them out to get the ideal playability.
Hi Andy
They are ceratinly adjustable - just got to use the right sort of paper (silicon carbide). I took 0.7-8mm off the bottom of one recently with the 'white proprietary' base material to try a saddle in a different guitar. No problems doing that. I also thinned one marginally which involved sanding both the base and the BD material simultaneously. Again, no problems.
His later third review says this product is worth the money go read them, and next time post all of them too not just the one that might,be a little negative.
Do I sense a bit of arrogance in your posts?
When I read LA Guitar Sales (Ted's) post, there were no follow up posts. I have not read them but will certainly go back a do so.
Thanks for pointing that out, but of course you had no way to know when the comments were read.
Ones which solve previously identified problems and those which do not.
In the former case value can be estimated given a rational assessment of the depreciation caused by the failure of the original.
In the latter value is simply a function of the percieved desirabiltiy of the gizmo itself. This is personal. I do not watch QVC nor do I have spinning rims. Similarly I find no value in your 'argument' depending as it does on an expensive leap of faith to solve a non problem.
Your attempt at rebuttal,above, clearly proved my point. This is increasingly the standard around here. Which brings me to my next point, we are not short of fools so your presence, like your product, is surplus to requirements.
RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Peter there are two types of gizmos.
Ones which solve previously identified problems and those which do not.
In the former case value can be estimated given a rational assessment of the depreciation caused by the failure of the original.
In the latter value is simply a function of the percieved desirabiltiy of the gizmo itself. This is personal. I do not watch QVC nor do I have spinning rims. Similarly I find no value in your 'argument' depending as it does on an expensive leap of faith to solve a non problem.
Your attempt at rebuttal,above, clearly proved my point. This is increasingly the standard around here. Which brings me to my next point, we are not short of fools so your presence, like your product, is surplus to requirements.
D.
It must be so easy for you to say that after I stood up and put it on the firing line. I articulated the reasons for being cautious, going slow and being skeptical. Then you say I'm dim witted and use a dull axe.
Hmm, well speak away oh great Buddha now that I've hewn a path through the forest for your holy feet to walk upon.
____________
Peter,
The burden of proof is on the company and the product, not the prospective buyer.
If you or the fellow who claims to represent the company had done the professional move, which would have been to write me a personal email and say something to the effect of: ______________________________________________________
Dear Stephen,
You're skepticism is healthy given the quantity of unnecessary products flooding the guitar market place, but we would really ask you to try out our saddle with an open mind. If you have any questions about the technical specs of the product or how work with it practically in the shop we are ready to correspond with you.
We realize the price is high, and this may inhibit you and others from initially from sampling the product. We feel the cost reciprocity of a bone saddle vs. a Black Diamond Saddle's lowered costs of fewer installations show the product to be cost effective over time. It is our hope you will remain open minded and try the saddle to see if you may come to agree with our assessment.
See they should hire me to promote the product and BE NICE to prospective buyers. If they had approached me this way I might be wiling to talk.
If I were say, an architect, and some company wanted to sell me on a new brand of structural fastener that cost more than ten times the cost of Simpson Strong ties I've used for years, and the product had no track record and insufficient testing by teams of disinterested engineers, would I buy it? I doubt it.
Why should I not take my professional responsibilities to the customer and vetting the products I choose as seriously as a lawyer, doctor or architect? There is no reason, and if you ask the top, top luthiers I bet they would agree; why use unvetted products just because someone is twisting your arm to use them ?The way to get me to try something is not to insult my intelligence because I make a case for being careful and conservative.
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