Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
counting issues whilst playing
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Keith White
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan. 28 2014
|
 counting issues whilst playing
|
|
|
OK, first of all, I have searched the forum but, perhaps I'm searching for the 'wrong' terminology.
Let me tell you what is happening and also, this is NEW to me. Flamenco as opposed to the guitar which likely isn't helping.
I'm working with 2 very simple forms.
Solea and Tangos.
If I count... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I have no issues.
What I'm finding, more so with solea, is my brain, when I'm relaxing into the feel, is instead breaking it down more like...
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & especially when introducing my as yet simple rasgueo.
Is this just something that will come with time. Should I in fact, BE trying to count my way through everything or, should I invest in a flamenco style metronome ?
Help.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 21 2014 12:07:16
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: counting issues whilst playing (in reply to tele)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Counting in four sets of three is easy way to feel it. Also tapping every beat is good practice, and after lots of practice, tap only the accents, that would be very helpful thing to learn especially if doing accompanying. I have never counted to twelve when playing, probably because it distracts me too much. However four sets of three can be felt quite easily and don't require counting
AT most, this is also what I advocate. However most students can do without counting. Metronome is essential for developing sense of steady tempo, but for learning I steer people away from fancy "flamenco" metronomes and such. Just a basic click is more useful. Flamenco metronomes are fun to use after you are already playing a lot of material in compas. But too many fall into traps of counting and chasing accents rather than grooving. Only count to 3 if you must count at all, learn how to feel phrases of different lengths and learn precise technique for making music, ie strumming patterns for compas or exact numbers of notes and spaces of a falseta, with a simple click. The music itself will add up to the correct phrasing and it will feel much more natural than if you try to force your playing into a counting cycle.
I post this vid a lot, but I recommend it as the fastest way to learn flamenco music. Here i am learning a falseta of tomatito in a short time with having only had a quick look at the encuentro book/video. No counting needed as simply adding up the notes and spaces to a steady groove create the compas cycle. Now if I made a mistake about adding note or space it would be off I admit. It is good to keep yourself in check about it, but keep the groove going.
http://youtu.be/axEJYoc_OOU
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 21 2014 16:47:48
|
|
Keith White
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan. 28 2014
|
|
RE: counting issues whilst playing (in reply to Keith White)
|
|
|
well, I didn't expect so many responses.
Quite conflicting too.
I listen to a fair bit and it stuns me when, well, the approach seems to be "This falseta is a bit longer, so lets lengthen the beat". Sort of, if it doesn't fit, stretch it.
It's in these zones I'm struggling. I'm pretty good with most timings, even compound but they still follow the X amount of quarter notes for example, FIT in this bar. I'm probably wrong but sometimes it feels to me, some falsetas seem way longer between some beats, than others. Obviously this is allowed and it doesn't detract from the 'music'. I'm just used to structure and bricks that stack up, not rubber bricks that bend around corners.
I also find I'm not completely following the llamada and changes in compas if the music is more complex. So lets suggest the first 2 beats are silent in a solea, I can follow that, but they aren't always.
Could anyone perhaps suggest some clear cut pieces where the rhythm is solid.
Sorry if i'm not making sense and perhaps I'll try tapping the foot, and get a metronome to try both. It can't hurt as right now, it's not happening.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 21 2014 18:09:10
|
|
n85ae
Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
|
|
RE: counting issues whilst playing (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
For me I have to get at least a few beats worth of notes in my memory before I
can put them in time, or else my brain locks up because I don't know where I am
going. A page of notes? No. But at least enough notes that I know where I am
going. I simply cannot go one note at a time like you do in the video.
On the other hand there have been times I thought "Ricardo" was wrong, only
to find out later that indeed he was right. (gee, that's not nearly as painful as
admitting my wife is right ...)
Jeff
quote:
Gifted or not, students should not be memorizing notes unless those notes are intrinsically tied to the correct rhythm from the get go.
It's the equivalent of trying to learn a poem, but first memorizing all the letters, then later trying to "work out" what the words and sentences where based on all those letters. The student should not move forward past the first word until it is both memorized and understood. Then the next word, then the next, then back to the first word and do the entire sentence, and so forth. Learning music by slowly repeating notes, that your brain might be tying to the wrong rhythms anyway, is not very efficient.
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 21 2014 21:24:35
|
|
Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
|
|
RE: counting issues whilst playing (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Gifted or not, students should not be memorizing notes unless those notes are intrinsically tied to the correct rhythm from the get go.
It's the equivalent of trying to learn a poem, but first memorizing all the letters, then later trying to "work out" what the words and sentences where based on all those letters. The student should not move forward past the first word until it is both memorized and understood. Then the next word, then the next, then back to the first word and do the entire sentence, and so forth.
I totally agree with Ricardo. This is how i study myself, how i expect my students to study and how i received and give lessons. Obviously when studying "word by word" as Ricardo calls it you are totally free to take all the time you need to get it right. Before you play anything (either a letter, a syllable, a word or a combination of words) you have to be aware of the rhythmical/musical context of every single note involved. Obviously some notes are more important as other notes. Most important are the melodic keynotes (the melodic accents). The other melody notes generally are either heading for that note or leaving it. On top you have to integrate various supporting noters like bass notes, chords, coloring notes, arpeggios etc., all to be played in a natural and clear relation to the main melody and it's natural accents. When a melodic line lacks flow it might help to play the accented melody note first a couple of times, giving it your full love and attention. Next you add 1 or more of the notes heading for it (or leaving it) WITHOUT LOOSING THAT ORIGINAL FEELING OF DROPPING THAT KEY NOTE. When things become really complicated i study the events layer by layer, starting with the main event, then the notes directly linked to the main line, next the notes linked to those notes etc.
So before you play anything (either a letter or a word or a combination of words) you have to be aware of the musical context of every single note involved in other words you have to know in advance what you want to express. Next you have to find the proper technique to express exactly that feeling. Like Paco Peña i favor musical understanding and perfect biomechanics/movement/relaxation over playing it rhythmically correct at first. If i need a little more time in the beginning to handle my fingers, to check if they are sufficiently relaxed or to make mental notes of other things i find important i just take that time. Playing fluently means pairing the correct thought to the correct action and tolerating imperfections in order to be "on time" to me is another example of being impatience.
Once i have my thoughts and actions covered (taking all the time i need to get them right) it is time to drill like Ricardo is doing in that bulerias demonstration. I try to avoid playing any faster then i can (perfect thought,action and execution are essential) and generally prefer to study at very low speeds. Obviously when you already have a good technique you can study new material at the tempo Ricardo demonstrated. If you are less handy just adapt lower speeds or do what i do....every time i notice an imperfection i take a step back, studying single letters or syllables again in relation to technical aspects and musical context.
Above is how i study music. On top you have to study the biomechanics of single fingers/moves and parts of fingers/moves (as well as simple combinations) at extremely low speeds/free of speed. On top one also needs to do tons of tonal/dynamic/rhythm studies, just to have a full pallet of colors to chose out.
Once you have the skills to execute things on the spot it's also very affective to focus on the rhythm/dynamics first and then add the notes. I generally favor to execute the pulse a couple of times in my mind first before executing it on the guitar, with or without visualizing the technique as well. But in all cases it is basically a "word by word" approach, either executed on the guitar alone or in dialog with your inner self (i used to think "how would i sing this" but switched to "how would i dance this", telling a good story having only rhythm and dynamics to my disposal).
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 22 2014 0:24:25
|
|
mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
|
|
RE: counting issues whilst playing (in reply to Keith White)
|
|
|
quote:
I listen to a fair bit and it stuns me when, well, the approach seems to be "This falseta is a bit longer, so lets lengthen the beat". Sort of, if it doesn't fit, stretch it.
It's in these zones I'm struggling. I'm pretty good with most timings, even compound but they still follow the X amount of quarter notes for example, FIT in this bar. I'm probably wrong but sometimes it feels to me, some falsetas seem way longer between some beats, than others. Obviously this is allowed and it doesn't detract from the 'music'. I'm just used to structure and bricks that stack up, not rubber bricks that bend around corners. what are you listening to? can you post a clip or video or some kind of reference?
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 22 2014 15:23:57
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
