Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
Pity the poor subjunctive
It seems to be in its death throes.
I had thought that sentences of the form "If A would have done B then…" were confined to tennis commentators; but now I’m seeing them everywhere, including twice here in the space of three posts.
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
Same trend with German; or maybe worse even. Meanwhile you can´t expect from journalists, official speakers and anchormen what you would had from upper school grades of the past.
But maybe finer use of language isn´t really required for who could be future´s Soilent green. I recall a motto from past century that went like "Let´s live in style!" These days it could be "Let´s vegetate!"
It shouldn´t surprise if general tendency was bovine.
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
If it's that big a deal and you have forgotten sentence diagramming maybe this would help: http://www.grammarly.com/
i took a test drive and submitted one of my film reviews/impressions that I was really proud of having written it in one sentence just for fun. They shot it down with a score of 20 out of 100. Obviously their software can't discriminate between inspired writing and hack prose :-)
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
I could not agree more, Paul. Unfortunately, in the United States at least, English grammar and punctuation have been deteriorating (and in many cases deliberately dumbed down) for some time. When I hear someone proclaim that punctuation doesn't matter as long as one gets one's idea across, I like to use the following example to demonstrate just how much punctuation does matter.
The following sentence seems straightforward and unambiguous, doesn't it?
"Woman without her man is nothing."
But let's add a couple of punctuation marks.
"Woman: without her, man is nothing."
E-mail only makes it worse, as no one seems to worry about correct English. Twitter no doubt will drive a stake through the heart of well-written English. I wonder if other languages are experiencing the same dumbing-down in the countries where they are spoken and written?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
"Woman: without her, man is nothing."
Only too true Bill !
Although I prefer the more expressive
"Woman ! Without her..... man is nothing."
I am happy to embrace the ambiguity introduced by the exclamation mark. And the non standard use of the ellipsis for pacing is a personal weakness. So although I prefer the above alternative offered I do not recommend it.
Paul I have to admit that I never make much of an effort with my prose. Even as a consumer I find myself far more concerned with intent and idiom than I am with grammar. For example I find that anthropomorphism, when used to induce moral authority, troubles me more than online laziness.
I wonder Paul.... was the title of this thread culled from the following limerick ?
Pity the poor subjunctive if you thinkofit if used poorly I cant stand the stinkofit when meaning is clear tis no cause for fear but when not the reader doth winkatit
Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
Misuse of apostrophes is a pet hate of mine. A clever quote on that subject: "An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its sh*t and a business that knows it's sh*t".
Posts: 1596
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
I believe this decline is noticeable in all living - and thus evolving and changing - languages (and, presumably, past generations complained, just as we do now). Years ago, when still speaking my mother-tongue (English) on a day to day basis, I loved "Fowler's Modern English Usage". Alas, in the 2nd edition from 1968 the subjunctive is already considered "no longer alive".
Another deplorable development can be seen in the German language, that not only has "adopted" numerous (pseudo-)English expressions, using them in a sense difficult or nigh impossible for English native speakers to understand (e.g. "Handy" for "mobile phone", "Aircondition" for "air conditioning", "Life-Performance" for "Live performance" ...).
I think the present paucity of expression isn't just due to the internet; dubbing from English has definitely changed colloquial German, as in the phrase "lass uns treffen" which is a word for word translation of "let's meet".
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to edguerin)
Echt cool Ed. German language is really getting very "poluted" with english words.
This is fortunately still going very slow here in Spain. I think mainly because they cant pronounce english. Some pretty recent words I remember now and that sound so stupid in my ears: Mister instead of entrenador. (Todos apoyamos al mister.) Filme instead of pelicula. (En el nuevo filme de furlanito...)
Subjunctive is still used a lot and its very complicated and very refined and its where spanish becomes really hard for those of us not used to subjunctive in our mother language.
Subjunctive is still used a lot and its very complicated and very refined and its where spanish becomes really hard for those of us not used to subjunctive in our mother language.
alot of letras if not tonneladas use subjonctivitis, so one could study.
como el agua: "Si tus ojillos fueran aceitunitas verdes, toa la noche estaria muele que muele..."
might adds a dificultad mas at the flamenco learning curva
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
I remember when I met my wife she used to tell me off for using too many subjunctives.
She put it down to spending too much time with los gitanos so here is a great letra which overuses it "Si no fuera por mi hermano, hubiera muerto de hambre". (Pies de Plomo, por soleá)
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Morante)
gypsies are guilties...cursed mindset.
I was listenning to Antonio Reyes and his peculiar way of phrasing tangos. Like this curse : "A la revolver el cigarrito a ti se te apague y no se vuelva a enceder".
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
I just finished Meacham's one-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson. I reveled in the elegance and precision of the quotations in 18th century English. Perhaps only the better ones have survived?
I know if I spoke that way here in central Texas I would likely not be understood, and if I were, my mental stability would be questioned.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: edguerin
Another deplorable development can be seen in the German language, that not only has "adopted" numerous (pseudo-)English expressions, using them in a sense difficult or nigh impossible for English native speakers to understand (e.g. "Handy" for "mobile phone", "Aircondition" for "air conditioning", "Life-Performance" for "Live performance" ...).
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: edguerin
e.g. "Handy" for "mobile phone" ...
"Handy" is Swabian dialect, stemming from: "Han die ka Kabel!?" -
On a more serious note, the French enacted publicly against the culture invasion, by restricting fast food chains on benefit of traditional snack and by limiting on Anglo-titles. Some thought it to be sort of protectionism, but many I think welcomned the policy.
I liked it better when destinations differed with specific kinds of architecture, cuisine and customs. These day any city center appears to be a same kind of shopping mall.
And while Mc D. and P. Hut are invading the world, their homeland itself seems to be losing the specifics it had.
In Germany restaurants with local cuisine appear to be seeing a revival, and I hope such to become internationally trendy, before global urbanity be turning into just some mega Hong Kong.
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
And while Mc D. and P. Hut are invading the world, their homeland itself seems to be losing the specifics it had.
True. Though there are many excellent choices to dine better than the fast food joints. A recent testing lab tested 8 burgers from the joints and found the meat content ranged from 2 to 12 %. In other words garbage. I eat nothing but wild caught salmon flash frozen in Alaska and shipped FedEx.
And yes regional differences are disappearing and it is said even the Southern accent is on the way to extinction. Here is a clip I rescued from utube as a reminder of what was but sadly his accent is not that pronounced. http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/edward441/media/accentchallenge.mp4.html
RE: Pity the poor subjunctive (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus I eat nothing but wild caught salmon flash frozen in Alaska and shipped FedEx.
Boy, last time that I came accross such delicacy I made a complete fool of myself, so against my dining habits. It was dinner at friends who had someone in Alaska sent them natural salmon. It was so incredibly delicious that I just could not control myself. Though cutting slices as thin as possible I reduced quite a chunk of what was left over at that point in time.
... To think of how once all salmon tasted like that ... Back then in the seventies. >sigh<
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus And yes regional differences are disappearing and it is said even the Southern accent is on the way to extinction. Here is a clip I rescued from utube as a reminder of what was but sadly his accent is not that pronounced. http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/edward441/media/accentchallenge.mp4.html
A bit large-scaled for me to visit YT, but I did love the round, heavy accent that surrounded me in California decades ago. I didn´t know that such was fading away, and find it a pity to hear so. :O(
Printable Version
so here is a great letra which overuses it "Si no fuera por mi hermano, hubiera muerto de hambre". (Pies de Plomo, por soleá)
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread