RELAX !

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

RELAX !

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RELAX !

Try to do all my excercises as relaxed as possible. But still my neck muscles are tensed.And it hurts between my shoulderblades (excuse me english).

Any suggestions?

Another thing that bothers me. When I look at video's The players rest there elbow on the guitar and they still have a straight wrist while playing (at least most of the time)

But I'm no average Spaniard. I'm 1.84m tall. Seems too tall to do it that way. So I tend to lift up my right shoulder a little bit to get the right righthand position. And that hurts

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2005 22:28:31

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

You've gotta find a way to not lift that shoulder.

Have you tried playing in traditional classical position?

tk

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2005 22:33:59

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

I have it on my right leg. I have a classical background so I was used to the left leg, but I think that doesn't look very flamenco. Although I had no trouble when I had it on my left leg.

About my shoulders: When I play I drop them but It seems that the combination of left- and right hand create a tension between the shoulders, just in the middle of my back.

When I just play open strings ( so without lefthand) There seems to be no tension.

By the way, thanks for replying Todd, I like your playing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2005 22:45:48

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

quote:

I'm no average Spaniard. I'm 1.84m tall

One of my teachers ,Mariano Cordoba, is about 5’ 4” tall. I am 6’ 7” (2 meters) tall. It took Mariano about one second to recommend something to me that really helped strained back and shoulder muscles. Place a footstool under your right foot and hold the guitar in the classical playing position.

Watch your posture! You must be slouching over the guitar that is you are bending your back towards your knees.

For the least amount of stress on the back and shoulders there is nothing better than the flamenco guitar playing position. It takes time to get use to controlling the instrument though. Give the above a try and let me know how it works for you.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 3:18:04

Guest

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Yea I'm 6'1" and it took me a while to figure out how to play with my arm on the guitar with no footstools and in regular flamenco position. I had my arm raised before that and it can cause tension and can be exhasuting. What I did was try to play more in the claw position with my palm closer to the strings. This way I can rest my arm on the guitar and for the most part my wrist is pretty much straight. This is the feeling that I think many flamencos have as well and you can get a lot of power and accuacy out of that position. Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 7:24:41

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

I already tried it. It makes me feel that I came out of a box they put me in and I can finally sit straight up again.Thank you very much Thomas and ..Guest(?).
Left shoulder still hurts, but I think it's conditioned to the former position.
Thumb position feels much more natural.

I have some trouble with the picado now. The forearm seems to long

I have to make an angle to the right in my wrist to put m-i in the right position.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 9:40:12

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

If I'm not mistaken, you're 1cm taller than I am. And that was my height taken months ago. I've haven't had any problems like that. Even when using a 1/2 scale guitar!

And I'm 19 so I probably will grow maybe another cm over the years?

To answer your question, why should your wrist be straight in the first place?! You won't be able to reach that easily if it's completely straight. It's perfecty normal and is the 'right way' in classical. So adjust yourself to fit it. But the elbow is meant to rest right at the edge, any higher or lower will probably put some stress on your neck.

The only exception where I lift my right arm a little is when I do rest strokes on the lower bass strings.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 9:52:54

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to Skai)

Hi Koella,

A frend of mine, Otto, who studied at the concervatory in Rotterdam, maybe you know him.
He have a "hight"problem too.
He solved it with a little cusion under his right arm.
Here you can see him use the cusion, scroll down..

http://plasencia.web-log.nl/categorie/173604

If you want I can contact you with him, he lives is Holland.

The cusion he made himself, it is not for sale, but i am sure he will help yo making it.

P.S. The site Otto Have is interesting to flamenco afficionados too, so take a look, and
http://plasencia.web-log.nl/
listen

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 10:05:51

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to Skai)

Skai: thank you. But how am I gonna raise my right arm using the classical position?
I won't be able to hold my guitar in position do I?

Gerundino: A cusion. How simple live can be!
Yes I would like contact with him. Thank you.

Nice photo's by the way. I'look around that site sometime.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 11:05:17

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

i have almost 7 years since i started ..and still have problems with position ,i use the flamenco
position ....with my legs crossed.I observed this ... u can see that in nunez encuentro or
tomatito encuentro ... or other videos.The claw possition Skai is talking is a must have for
the right hand.It's not necessary to hold your hand like that all that time ,but u have
to shift to this postion for some techniques.For example in long picados (especially if u are
gonna end your picado on your bass strings) and in tremolo .If u look at the nunez in the
tremolo section u'll see what I mean .. claw position is a must.Claw postion gives u the
posibility to do tremolo on bass strings ...or do just tremolo (ami ,ami ,ami...etc) without a
bass line .This tremolo without a bass line is purely ornamental ...but combined with picado
u can do some nice sounding fast licks.Anyway,i got to look more on this postion ...i do this
exercise for picado ... I do scales with i and m fingers,and in the middle of the scale
I switch to a m picado .....then i a picado .To do this exercise ....u have to have the "claw"
position . That's my advice on technique .. i have no advice on compas though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 11:17:43

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

I use both positions, classical and with my legs crossed. I don't lift up my elbow from the guitar, it practically sticks there. I just adjust my forearm.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 13:52:03

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

quote:

have some trouble with the picado now.

If I were able to be with you in person I could adjust your position as might be necessary.

Here are two considerations:

1. Area where the right hand strikes the strings:
A. Adjust the point of contact between the right inner elbow where it meets the guitar. This will allow you to find a number of regions that give good ability to hold and control the instrument. You will also be able to strike the strings where you want to and still have control. A slight adjustment will allow you to strike near the sound hole or bridge, whichever area is appropriate for what you want to do.

2. The foot stool:
A. In addition to placing the footstool under the right foot, you can attain fine adjustments by moving the footstool (with your foot of course!) towards or away from your chair. I have the footstool against the leg of the chair. My footstool is a very nice one made of wood. I retired my metal footstools years ago.

One more hint:

About your shoulder: If the pain persists see a doctor who is competent in treating such symptoms. To reduce pain you can sit in the above position and gently rest your left outer forearm on your left thigh.

I have used many positions to hold my guitars during the last 53 years. I started when I was 10. Cross legged, American, etc. You have to find what works best for you and experiment a bit as well as observe and ask lots of questions!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 14:43:13

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

My take is that you need to listen to everyone and try everything. For a long time, I tried to play like Paco because I thought it looked cool (I still do), but it doesn't work too well for me. I switched to the classical position recently, and it seems to help me a lot. ONe thing I don't understand is how the footstool on the right leg would help someone with long arms? It seems to me that the classical position, with the guitar lower, would give you more space. After all, the guitar is further away from the shoulder in this position.

Also keep in mind that your arm can act as a class I or II lever while resting (at least that's what Iznaola said). If you rest the arm near the elbow, the hand will tend to fall toward the strings. If you rest it closer to the hand, then it will tend to fly up. In the latter position, you will need to expend more energy, some of that from the shoulder probably, to keep it in position.

In classical guitar circles, Aaron Shearer has preached that you should keep the wrists generally straight when playing. This is supposed to help avoid carpal tunnell syndrome. So it is trendy to do this right now, and it happens that I more or less play this way. But in the history of the guitar, probably 99% of the great players have played with a pretty bent wrist, so I don't think it should be considered more than one of many options.

I think you should let the sound guide you, because you are a musician after all, and then try to get your body to do this in as comfortable way as possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 16:28:45

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ONe thing I don't understand is how the footstool on the right leg would help someone with long arms?

Mike;

If a person who is tall holds a guitar in the classical position with a footstool under the left foot, two things happen.

1. The inner portion of your right elbow does not touch the body of the guitar, which is essential to supporting the instrument.

2. You have to twist your body to compensate for this position and it causes problems with your back and shoulders.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:15:43

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

Here I am. My wife has gone to bed and I'm sitting with my guitar in front of a lap-top. Isn't that what live is all about ?

Sorin: the switching i-m a-m during the scale is a good advice. Can you somehow descrbe this claw position?

Thomas: Can buy you a plane ticket but I think you're better off staying there this time of year.

Thank you for your advice. especially moving the footstool while playing I will try.
The pain in the shoulder is only there when I'm playing, doesn't feel like something I've never had before. Only difference is the amount of time I'm playing at this moment.

Miguel: In the classical position I'm forced toclass I, as you call it. And it seems to work well.
As about sound, yes that should be the main issue

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:26:50

PLasencia

Posts: 9
Joined: Nov. 13 2005

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

Please visit my site and read the article on a self developed cushion, it might be a solution to your pains.

Good luck!

Plasencia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 22:17:32

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to PLasencia)

Hi Plasencia!

Welcome here!

Peter.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 22:50:29

PLasencia

Posts: 9
Joined: Nov. 13 2005

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to gerundino63)

Hello Gerundino!~I feel honoured that I'm being promoted here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 18:08:37

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

I can show u some pictures , with real players ...about what I'm talking
But as I've seen when the picado is fast......the right elbow it's in the air
, u do not rest it against the body of the guitar.Now , the right is almost
perpendicular to the strings ..and is in the air .The palm of your
right should be paralel with the face of the guitar. I say this is the
"claw" postion .The right hand is positioned depending on the technique,for
example ....u cant do pulgar work in this "claw" posistion .This position
is only for picado ...when u do arpegios , u are allowed to rest your
elbow ...also for pulgar or alzapua.

Unfortunately cant upload here pictures ....this public section cant allow
that .Now , I'm not satisfied with the picado i've got ...I only say
what I observed ..and I think some pictures,will clarify that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 19:07:40

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

Sorin I think it'difficult to lift your elbow when using the traditional flamenco-position. So how am I to hold my guitar still then?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 19:20:08

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koella

So how am I to hold my guitar still then?

This is one of the essential difficulties that must be explored and mastered--movement vs. stability. You need the freedom to quickly and sensitively raise and lower the position of your hand, but you also need to keep the guitar from flying. Personally, since I play in the classical position, I always keep the forearm touching the soundboard for stability, even in fast scales. You can play very quickly this way, I don't think it puts any sort of ceiling on your speed.

On the other hand, a good practice technique is to hold the guitar upright by holding on with the LH, and disassociating the right arm from the soundboard, and going up and down. You get a bit of the feeling you will need to move freely. In fact, I think it is always a good idea to isolate the different parts and try them out, only bringing them together when the individual movement is mastered.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 19:39:09

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

hmm , tricky ... cant u just try cross legs position ? I mean almost very player uses that
except for manolo sanlucar I think, which uses a footstool for his right , not for his left like
in classical.

G.Nunez in his Encuentro has the movement I described when doing picado ...so , I'm trying to copy that ...not much results so far ...but I believe I improved a little ,so
I still believe this is thr right way.

This could be funny...there are other problems too ...fat players versus
skinny ones or vs normal ones.

I'm 1,69 m and have 57 kg ...so I'm very skinny.I tried to teach one of my roomates
to sit with the legs crossed ...and he just cant do it cause of his belly .Now very skiny,
I believe it's not an advantage either...
I had problems with postion also and I still have a little for alzapua.For me things starting to change when I didnt think at the position and just played and relaxed.So play the easy stuff for you and play much...u'll adapt sooner.
Here at the foro there are some very good players so listen to them too , that
was all I knew about this subject.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 20:26:38

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: RELAX ! (in reply to koella)

Miguel: good advice. thank you!

Sorin:In the crossed leg position my forearm lies halfway on the guitar. So when I do picado or something else fast, my arm starts jumping because of the musclemovement.
In the classical (flamenco)position, my elbow lies on the guitar, so my forearm is free. I'm faster and more relaxed ! Only when I get on the lower E string and a string, It don't feels comfortable, cause I can't lift my arm. But I can adjust the hight of the forearm a bit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2005 21:57:35