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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Basically two kinds of timbre? 
Several threads are going about Condes, with some posts in there mentioning antique Ramirez flamencas as remarkable alternative.

Could it be that these two characteristic builds represent timbres that more or less devide the flamenca world into 2? ( Each attracting a different kind of taste.) That is at least what I told a guitar student lately.

The guitars of the "Conde type" performing hoarse with a buzzy ring, while the other type comes along more round and smooth.

With people often preferring one of these types over the other.
-

- With me being in the hoarse fraction of preference.
Me has that 1970 Ramirez that I reviewed somewhere here in comparison to a Lester deVoe, ranking the Ramirez as a pretty fine guitar.
It was however still recovering then from a severe drying out from about 2 years or so ago, and has steadily improved further and recovered since then.

It has turned out to be a magnificient instrument. If not to say a "cannon". Sounding so beautifully, lush and round.
Sonically I think it can´t be had much better.

She resides in what I personally consider a category suiting the flamenco playing in terms of decay and sufficient separation for rasgueados, but not performing exactly muy flamenco, no matter the beauitiful notes she emits. ( Similar case with the DeVoe.)

Sabicas would probably not agree, as he played this round timbre long enough ( and may have influenced some of those whose ears prefer the soft timbre for this genre). Similar maybe PdL and Grisha in view of DeVoes.
But to my ears it definitly needs snarling like with the Conde ( or maybe more even Perez) types to sound very flamenco.

Anyway, my impression is that there are actually flamenco sounding guitars on the one hand and those on the other hand that do suit ( however beautifullly sonics wise ) by allowing percussive playing, yet without the flamenco spice of edge & buzz.
If that be somewaht right we would basically have two main categories like a crisp and a velvety one.

Hope I could make understood what I mean.

Ruphus


PS:
Modern Ramirez flamencas might have turned to the dark ( growling) side too.
I have only experienced classicals of theirs / no first hand experience with contemporary flamencas, but the one flamenca Grisha played in a GSI video sounded surprisingly accentuated and snarly to me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2013 20:45:39
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
From the moment I saw manolo playing a seguiriya with his ramirez I thought exactly like what you are thinking.
it was the most beautiful thing i ve ever heard. so lyrical, full and round sounding but also very very flamenco. madre de dios hermoso...
its not like a palosanto conde neither like a classical guitar. just magic

So I totally agree with you
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2013 22:25:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
My personal preference is with the raspy type though.
Independently from how beautiful the old Ramirez sounds, it is just not muy flamenco to my ears.

Me likes it crisp and fast.
Better even when they come in not just raspy but also nasal and throaty like what I hear with Andy Culpepper´s guitars. His make I need to try out yet.

In the other thread soemone wrote that he tried out a good Conde and that he could see how such a fast and aggressive guitar would attract people, however that it was just not of his personal taste.

I thought he might be in the "round camp" like you.

Best,

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 8:53:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Rmn) 
quote:

From the moment I saw manolo playing a seguiriya with his ramirez I thought exactly like what you are thinking.


Something about the nasally woody voice of the ramirez I never liked. I dont consider conde guitars "raspy" at all. That term applies to any guitar with a low action. In fact most conde's are NOT raspy to me and Sanlucar's guitar because of low action set up is crazy raspy and buzzy. But HERE he sounds totally different due to the CONDE guitar he is playing....very clean, quiet but focused and mid rangy instrument. Perfect for cante, which is why all those players went for that sound I think, and still do:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 12:04:57
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
I think you are right. Even though I do like raspyness, what I was trying to circle in as contrast to a round sound stage like with the ( old) Ramirez kind might rather be somewhere in ... accentuation maybe ..., crispness, transients of fast attack ( and short sustain ) and dryness in the sense of minor overtones.
"Midrange centered" I think applies too; however that can be covered by the smooth kind of flamenco guitar as well. My Ramirez certainly does.

You are helping me with gaining a more defined picture of what actually makes what. Thank you.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 13:43:34
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

Me has that 1970 Ramirez


Who's initials are in it? I have a 70 with JM .G on the foot. I checked the Ramirez website for the full name but I couldn't find the listing of what the initials represented. I did find it several years ago when I bought the guitar but it was a bit inconclusive possibly due to the Spanish custom of including the initials of both parents. Nice guitar. I just put Pegheds on it and they work really well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 19:00:43
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Mine is stamped "JM", which stands for Julian Moraga Rodriguez.
He I think was not listed either. If I recall that right I got the name directly from Amalia ( amalia at guitarrasramirez dot com).

Seems your pegs are totally messed up too. On mine they have been shaped pretty unsuitably from beginning, which then must have been followed by users´ maloperation.

And just like you I am having pegheads on the way as well.
Kind of a pity, but justified as long as there is no luthier near by who could repeg the wholes and re-taper the clumsy pegs.
There is also a fret wire to come that is a new kid on the fret block. Embraced by both luthiers and players who came to use it.
Hope I can find someone here who would know the job sufficiently, otherwise I would have to refret myself. ( Am not really awkward with crafting, but always prefer to leave things to pros.)

Has the neck of yours been inserted unusually cocked too?
How would you roughly describe the sound of yours?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 19:54:03
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
To me it sounds like yours--lush and round with a strong treble. I recently got it back from the guy that invented the Pegheds who installs them if you send your guitar to South Carolina He told me he used a 9mm and counter sunk the underside of the head stock. But I just noticed the bridge saddle is missing! I can see that he removed my strings because he ties them differently than me so it must have fallen out. Bummer. I wondered why the bass strings rattled so much. I can't see any problem with the neck. Mine is a 2A by the way. so now I'll have to hunt down a suitable saddle.
Could you do me a favor and measure the height of your saddle?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2013 22:14:19
 
Ruphus

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RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Mine is a 2A too. And such a ragged one.
And yes, the fast and clear ringing, in volume up to last fret so even trebles stick out.


If your saddle is like mine it may be somehow understandable how the peghed man overlooked it at restringing.
That thing comes along almost like a needle. It is a mere 4 mm on the bass side and 1,8 on the treble end ( yep, the slot really is that shallow ), which amounts to 7 and 4 mm action at the bridge.
I doubt though production tolerances of the shop to have been that narrow that our guitars could be taking exact same dimensions at the saddle. The specs here may only be good for a rough guideline, if at all.


Tell me please whether your fingerboard and neck are also slightly raising from the soundboards level / going up with a subtle angle? ( If my language is not clear yet: Imagine the fretboard in line with trails of a taking off airplane, and the top as the runway ... err ... ... sort of.)
The former owner said an inspecting luthier found the construction "very interesting" in a positive way. And to him it was the easiest to play guitar ever. ( To me it is being very handy too, but I have had more playable than this for my flippers.)

In view of experience with the shops contemporary top of classical guitars I have been all beefing about this badly overpriced brand.
But I got to say; since this old crock of a flamenca has recovered from a shock of severe drying out ( which took incredibly long / might yet not be over, because the axe seems to still be getting better from day to day) it turns out to be really something.

If you prefer it without creak and crackling, this is the guitar for your flamenco playing.

It is beyond me how a production premise of default sizing, independently of individual pieces of material, can yield such sonor instruments. But what do I know anyhow.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 0:48:59
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

Tell me please whether your fingerboard and neck are also slightly raising from the soundboards level / going up with a subtle angle?


Yeah, the neck is inclined at a slight angle (upward)from the soundboard i.e. it is not parallel with the soundboard. But I think that's normal. Maybe one of the luthiers here could elucidate.
And as I remember it, the saddle just barely cleared the bridge. but I thought Ramirez guitars were made to a template given to the builders by the boss so I would'n expect to see much if any deviation. Mine is in very good condition. There is what looks to be a tight crack below the bridge but it is at an angle to the grain so it might be in the varnish.

I bought a Sakurai classical a few years ago on ebay that must have been from a estate (or maybe even yard) sale as the bidding started at $400. There was a guy bidding against me so I finally got it for $800. It took awhile for it to wake up as it clearly hadn't been played for some time but it turned out to be a fine guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 11:39:20
 
Ruphus

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RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
I forgot to thank your for the bits on the peghed mounting! ( I had expected holes needed to be funnel-shaped.)

This raise of the neck looks different from neck relief to me. Think to have not seen such before.
Hearing your description it sounds indeed as if the situation at the bridge was very similar.

I am aware about the template production, still had not counted with similarities down to the millimeter.

Mine was shock dried.
A complete idiot of a courier driver put the case in the trunk of his black car at temperatures well over 40° in the shade, then parked his vehicle exposed to the midday sun and processed torturing it afterwards on his way through traffic jam to here.
I estimate temperatures in the trunk to have been around 90°C or so for four hours or so. ( Mind you: The guy was informed about this being an expensive instrument brought over from abroad, but dumbness knows no boundaries, as you can study all to well in this hemisphere.)

When it arrived strings were completely off intonating as the nylon had contracted in the heat, and the guitar sounded so weak and completely messed up that I set up a letter of rage to the seller which I am still glad to actually have not sent out.
For, after several days the guitar started recovering / increasingly revealing its original qualities and it seems to still be making up.

Wrote a review here where I compared it to a deVoe negra ( which could be interesting you to a degree as you have owned / own both kinds as well ). That was however when the Ramirez was performing distinctively less lively than today.


The preceding owner was about to get himself a Barba, yet convinced that he might be missing this warhorse from time to time, which I now can imagine how.

It really has its specific, captivating strenghts, even if not being epitome of the mui flamenco specimen to my ears. Sonically it is quite a beast without doubt.
- Good enough after all to have me put up with totally kaputt pegs. ( Thanks Mannitou that the guitar keeps the tuning pretty well, once you got things ram nudged ... and your fingertips mashed like overripe plums.)

Just last night I couldn´t put it down until dawn.

Am expecting a guitar of the gnarled type, soon. It will be seriously challenged to sonically leave the given competition behind, but I am optimistic. - ... and wetting my pants.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 15:10:38
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
I found the saddle in the little box in the case. It has no taper and to me the bass strings rattle too much so I am going to see if I can remedy that.

I sold a guitar to a guy on the west coast in the San Jacento valley and I was very careful to send it 2 day delivery on a Monday and told him when it would arrive. Checking the tracking they tried to deliver it in the early morning (the weather there tops out at just below 100 F every day. Would you believe he left for a week to elsewhere and when he finally got the guitar he complained the back was "scrunched" and as I had listed it as as new he was upset!. Well it took a while but he finally accepted it. The new PayPal rules accept the payment from the buyer but put a hold on it until the buyer approves. No bueno!

Regarding the countersinking of the pegheds this is what the guy told me


Installation went VERY smoothly. I did a little bit different technique than normal. 8mm pegs were too small, so I countersunk 9mm pegs from rear so that holes on face of headstock did not have to be enlarged at all.

I went ahead and put the mother of pearl on to keep the original look. Your original pegs are inside the case.

I am sure you will be pleased. According to his authorized dealer here:
http://www.pegheds.net/for-guitar.html
Ramirez pegheds are 8 mm dia. So I suppose that his countersink could have been tapered.
This link gives the best idea of the work involved.
http://www.pohakuukulele.com/pages/t_pegheds.html
Might be best to experiment with a piece of wood the same thickness as your headstock (mine is 24mm) before working on the guitar.
aeolus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 16:08:52
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
All these Conde posts have been very educational.
I've learned you can get matching accessaries for your Conde.
A matching orange couch for your Blanca, and in the Sanlucar video he clearly has a Conde rosette matching jacket; to bad the video is in B&W, that'd be one loud jacket.
I recently made up a couple of those jacket matching rosettes, it's one of my favourites; I think I'll have to colour one to match estabananas couch.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 17:25:28
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Hi Aeolus!

So much about fried guitars. Some seem to think that `dead material´ like wood could take it.

Just came to my mind that the originally inserted saddle here will likely have been replaced sometime, as the current one is being a bit shorter than the slot. Luckily the saddles properties have been chosen well fitting though, unlike of so many amateur setups that I have seen with weirdo arrangements like individual strings on different hight and sometimes even irregular spacings.

Thank you for the links! I bookmarked them.
So, guess I must hope fore the pegheds to be coming with 8 mm, otherwise they might not fit. |O[


Sean,

Wrong thread.
I like the shade of those rosettes. They demand for stained B&S though. Either greyish bright or a dark midnight blue should fit. No joking.

Actually I saw a shady greyish bright blue guitar in a dream a while ago and it looked good.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 18:59:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Sean) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

All these Conde posts have been very educational.
I've learned you can get matching accessaries for your Conde.
A matching orange couch for your Blanca, and in the Sanlucar video he clearly has a Conde rosette matching jacket; to bad the video is in B&W, that'd be one loud jacket.
I recently made up a couple of those jacket matching rosettes, it's one of my favourites; I think I'll have to colour one to match estabananas couch.




Nice actually.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 19:46:51
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Could the timbe be described dry or wet perhaps if its to be made into "basically two kinds"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 20:28:50
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

All these Conde posts have been very educational.
I've learned you can get matching accessaries for your Conde.
A matching orange couch for your Blanca, and in the Sanlucar video he clearly has a Conde rosette matching jacket; to bad the video is in B&W, that'd be one loud jacket.
I recently made up a couple of those jacket matching rosettes, it's one of my favourites; I think I'll have to colour one to match estabananas couch.



Lacks a strong simple design. Like Romanillios' arches or Rayes' crosses.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2013 22:43:57
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Could the timbe be described dry or wet perhaps if its to be made into "basically two kinds"?


That rings a bell with me; but there seems some more to the difference. ... In audio terms we would be talking of "distortion", but in acoustic terms I don´t know how to describe the fuzzy texture that gives accentuation or crispness.

What would be the handsome opposite from "mellow" or "velvety"?
... "Crunchy" maybe?

... feels like that could describe it.
Like the velvet and round sound stage on the one hand and the crunchy and hoarse one on the other.
Makes sense?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 1:12:11
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
@Ruphus

One thing, that link to the pegheds installation on a ukulele, shows the threads visible on the top of the headstock; this is not necessary and doesn't look as good as when only the tip shows. This is a pic of my guitar with the completed installation sent to me by the installer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/1175/vupk.jpg

Just discovered my bridge saddle thickness is 1/16" and it seems 1/8" is the thinnest commercially available. what to do?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 11:41:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

From the moment I saw manolo playing a seguiriya with his ramirez I thought exactly like what you are thinking.


Something about the nasally woody voice of the ramirez I never liked. I dont consider conde guitars "raspy" at all. That term applies to any guitar with a low action. In fact most conde's are NOT raspy to me and Sanlucar's guitar because of low action set up is crazy raspy and buzzy. But HERE he sounds totally different due to the CONDE guitar he is playing....very clean, quiet but focused and mid rangy instrument. Perfect for cante, which is why all those players went for that sound I think, and still do:




forgot about this for comparison to the Ramirez blanca. I say both guitars have more in common than with their own rosewood equivalents, so trying to split sound into two camps by maker is probably not gonna be so black and white;



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 14:36:34
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
The naming of brand is only meant for example, in sight of that a certain amount of these makes appear to be of widely similar characteristics.

This is not to be understood as an intention to devide by brand regardless.
- I actually thought that could be understood easily.

As I have been trying to make clear above, there appear to be two basically different timbres with flamenco guitars.
One of a smooth kind ( in the way older Ramirez or DeVoe guitars seem to mostly turn out) and the other of a more edgy voice ( like maybe typically Condes or more even guitars from the Teodoro Perez shop).

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 17:29:24
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Could the timbe be described dry or wet perhaps if its to be made into "basically two kinds"?


That rings a bell with me; but there seems some more to the difference. ... In audio terms we would be talking of "distortion", but in acoustic terms I don´t know how to describe the fuzzy texture that gives accentuation or crispness.

What would be the handsome opposite from "mellow" or "velvety"?
... "Crunchy" maybe?

... feels like that could describe it.
Like the velvet and round sound stage on the one hand and the crunchy and hoarse one on the other.
Makes sense?

Ruphus


Crisp? raspyness?

Round vs edgy?

Raw vs smooth?

Ballzy vs eunuchy?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 18:37:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to tele) 
For me it's like comparing sherries. Negra comparisons are like oloroso to amontillado.... blanca comparisons like The sanlucar examples above are like comparing fino to manzanilla. And sometimes what you are in the mood for changes too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2013 20:59:12
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
Think I get your drift now!

However, it has not been about rankings.

Only instead about two specifics which unlike other characteristics makes for a unity of two basically different types of sound stages.

Correct: Within those two chambers of common ground great diversity of further attributes continues to exist, which though in no way contradicts a mutual and basic difference like between silky and grainy.

If for whatever reason such timbre siblings like smooth & fuzzy shall not be presentable, so may they be turned down.

But my impression is that people do favour between these outlaws already. I would even wildly estimate proportions of around 30:70 between smooth & fuzzy fractions within flamencos, with a considerable gain for the smoothies when estimating with respect of the general audience ( possibly closer around 50:50 there).

Something like that. Roger.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2013 0:34:10
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:


For me it's like comparing sherries. Negra comparisons are like oloroso to amontillado.... blanca comparisons like The sanlucar examples above are like comparing fino to manzanilla. And sometimes what you are in the mood for changes too.


Sorry, you lost me.
Stupid computer won't translate that language into beer for me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2013 0:43:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Sean) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

quote:


For me it's like comparing sherries. Negra comparisons are like oloroso to amontillado.... blanca comparisons like The sanlucar examples above are like comparing fino to manzanilla. And sometimes what you are in the mood for changes too.


Sorry, you lost me.
Stupid computer won't translate that language into beer for me.


Go try some. Sherries go from super sweet like cream sherry, to super dry like Manzanilla or Fino. Acquired taste of course, and they might go better with certain food or not. But nothing is more flamenco than some Jamon Iberico with ice cold glass of manzanilla. Remember Edgar allen poe? Cask of Amontillado? That's a darker sweeter one. Manzanilla is light colored, pale, and super dry, not sweet at all. They are all made in Jerez...and that's what "Jerez" means anyway, sherry. They all come from there, except Manzanilla which is specifically from Sanlucar (a 20 minute drive to the coast from Jerez anyway).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2013 18:42:46
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I have been a sherry aficionado for decades, first discovering its delights while on assignment in Manila, the Philippines in the mid-1970s, at a Spanish restaurant called Madrid. Depending on the season, the anticipated dinner, and my own mood at the time, I like Manzanilla, Fino, and Amontillado. I particularly like Amontillado for its medium-dry, nutty taste. I do not like, and never drink, Oloroso or Cream Sherry, however, as both are much too sweet for my taste.

At any rate, in my book sherry is the "Nectar of the Gods."

Cheers,

Bill

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Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2013 20:28:30
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

Tell me please whether your fingerboard and neck are also slightly raising from the soundboards level / going up with a subtle angle?


It looks to me that the reason for the slight neck angle is to get the strings very close to the top to facilitate the golpe technique In which case I wonder if it precedes the construction of a classical which has the strings much higher in relation to the top hereby improving volume as it was pointed out elsewhere the idea is to increase the torque on the bridge.It has long been an argument as to when guitar makers such as Torres didn't differentiate between guitars as to their intended purpose.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2013 12:54:29
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
I am not certain whether I understand what you are aiming at.
To the differences between the two builds of classical and flamenco belongs indeed the different hight of the bridge / action. For flamenco demands commonly achieved by lower bridge and saddle.

What we see with our vintage Ramirez flamencas is however different from common construction. ( And I assume that the shop is not building this way anymore with their contemporary flamenca production.)

Remarkable besides how the raised neck makes for a further flattened break angle at the bridge, which again according to the plausible idea of less torque should result into a slightly softer instrument ( in the sense of less volume).

However, my guitar resides rather on the loud side.
As I think to have mentioned, it is quite a cannon.
Yours too?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2013 14:43:19
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Basically two kinds of timbre? (in reply to Ruphus) 
I think all guitars have the neck at a slight angle all mine do--classical and flamenco. I just got a Ethan Deutsch flamenco and it is set up very close to the Ramirez with the bridgesaddle just a little taller. If the neck was parallel to the top the bridge/saddle would have to be too high in relation to the top.
My guitar is no canon but it's treble is very full and reasonably loud. the bass is not all that great but I am going to try different bass strings to see if it can be improved.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2013 15:36:17
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