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Hey, I've found a very nice Conde from 1986 that will be sold for 3100€ But there's no signature on the label. The guy who wanted to sell me that guitar says it's normal for old guitars that the luthiers didn't designate the label. Anyway it's a very good guitar but I'm wondering if I get the money back once I'll sell it.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jof
Hey, I've found a very nice Conde from 1986 that will be sold for 3100€ But there's no signature on the label. The guy who wanted to sell me that guitar says it's normal for old guitars that the luthiers didn't designate the label. Anyway it's a very good guitar but I'm wondering if I get the money back once I'll sell it.
The signed ones are the A models and can resell for $5000 plus. The B models? they might be more valuable if older. 1980's not so sure, but if the guitar sounds and plays well there is a good chance you could sell it in the future and not lose. I personally place B guitars in the $2000 range or less. You can go a head and remove the "faustino" designation though, for sure it's not his build.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jof
Thanks Ricardo! But, is it a factory guitar?
Nobody knows for sure what the deal is. But I would assume YES. Hence the cheaper price etc. Point is that it is not an A model guitar, so not luthier constructed, but who knows who Faustino had working for him to do the B guitars? I once saw an Atocha Conde that had Ricardo Sanchis Carpio stamped on the top inside. I always assumed his "factory" was building for the condes for a long time.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
Richard just about sums it up. I can only add that Faustino died in 1988 but by 1986 his wife Julia was already signing some of the guitars with the characteristic “J” over the” Conde Hermanos”. During the late 80s the appearance (cosmetic details) of the guitars was quite variable suggesting that at this time guitars of all qualities could have been sourced from a variety of makers. Anything with the name “Conde” on from this period or earlier seems to selling for silly money in the UK, regardless of quality – an unsigned, undated Conde sold for USD 2750 in London a few weeks ago.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
Mostly the second quality condes have different, more simple label and no media luna headstock. Most of them that I have seen have been around 1500 euros. If its a media luna with a label of the primeras then I would think about 2500, otherwise IMO too much for a segunda. Pretty much every primera has red label(the segundas have sometimes green) with the flower pattern like seen here:
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RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
I'll ask him for 2500€ Thats enough or what do you think?
Too much, 2000€ maximum.
quote:
If its a media luna with a label of the primeras then I would think about 2500€
The label you posted is from El Polaco's Conde, you can ask him the price, it's more than 2500€.
Dealers these days are selling 1970s to 1988 Gravina 7 primeras for around 3750€ to 5500€ depending on condition. Hard to get one cheaper on the private market.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
Sorry, who is this Conde character ....seems a lot for an old piece of wood. Mine says' hand made' and has a quality product name inside. I believe it says Stargg. I know I'm a lucky man. I can make it sing. The guy under the bridge said so...he knows his stuff...likes to sniff a lot,drinks unbranded cider and goes by the name of 'oy mate' Christ guys get it together!!
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
If its a media luna with a label of the primeras then I would think about 2500€
The label you posted is from El Polaco's Conde, you can ask him the price, it's more than 2500€.
Sorry I meant if its a segunda with primera label and media luna headstock. I have seen one in the past, altough Im not completely sure about the label. It had a two piece bone tieblock inlay like on other segunda condes.
Faustino conde from 1986 makes even me pay 4000 euros.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
I'm not trying to be difficult, but you guys keep posting this guitar ID and price stuff in the luthery section. It really should go in the general section, don't you think? This stuff has been very discouraging for the guitar makers here and as you can see they don't respond to these types of discussions.
Could you guys put this non guitar building stuff where it belongs? I think luthiers would be more inclined to give opinions if it was not cluttering up an already difficult section.
No offense, but seriously this kind of off topic stuff is driving the guitar makers away.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
It's cool, but things have been overflowing into this section the last several months and it's getting to difficult to talk guitar making and keep track of topics. And it should go without saying that guitar makers are having a difficult enough time as is without having to help sell guitars for guys who list them on Ebay. Right?
I've noticed a decline in guitar makers participation and I'm not the only one. There's also been a lot of posting by those who don't make guitars speculating about how guitars work, yeah, it breeds misconceptions that take a lot time to explain and straighten out.
And there are certain guitar makers who have to post their marketing strategies...it's all counter productive to actual guitar making talk.
I'm not being negative, I'm just voicing some frustrating observations the Foro guitar making community has been talking about in private emails.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I'm not trying to be difficult, but you guys keep posting this guitar ID and price stuff in the luthery section. It really should go in the general section, don't you think? This stuff has been very discouraging for the guitar makers here and as you can see they don't respond to these types of discussions.
Could you guys put this non guitar building stuff where it belongs? I think luthiers would be more inclined to give opinions if it was not cluttering up an already difficult section.
I think that's an excellent point and hope others will respect it going forward.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
Sorry to disagree here, but I am sure that questions regarding makes and values on the market regarding INSTRUMENTS are perfectly appropriate here. General section should be flamenco related (ie music and cante and everything flamenco generally speaking), this section is the specifics of instruments, not only construction details, but history, makes, detailing, relative values, etc etc. Only thing is if someone is SELLING an instrument better in classifieds, or reviewing an instrument recently purchased, perhaps product reviews.
Perhaps what is REALLY need to make everyone happy is a CONDE section with FAQ sticky.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
No I disagree, if you want to talk about prices make another section. This section should be about guitar making process not commerce.
If this keeps going to commerce, guitar makers won't post here any longer. Have fun with that I suppose it what you guys really want. There's no longer an incentive for makers to share ideas.
Move it over to general where it belongs. You guys don't care about guitar making any longer. Really that's how it looks.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
Bananasan, I think I agree with you with the commerce angle but the last couple of posts I made here concerned the negative Barbero relief and the sound of my recent build attempt and both were met pretty much with silence. That was a beginner calling for advice. And, no it hadn't been addressed really in the past. I have taken it personally like so many other beginner builders evidently do. Tbh I think the bitterness and competitiveness shown between some of the 'faces' here has poisoned the well. The same figures feature on other fora in the same way so I don't feel bad about saying that. Go..er, figure. In the meantime I have ordered a lot of wood from Madinter (eventually, what is with their site?) and will work it out myself. Is that a result for the forum? No, but probably the best way. Luthier section may just be for the pro builders to compare their tools.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
Burdo,
The thing that you get that not everyone understands at this point is that you need to separate process from commerce of you want to have discussion that will benefit both professional, semi professional and learners. The other glaring problem, dare I say it, is total lack of moderation and classification of separate areas where process and commerce can exist separately. I'm not a purist in the sense that I demand zero commercial engagement, that is silly. However as the luther section exists now there are no boundaries which delineate how far ir is acceptable to go.
What happens is that someone pushes too far to promote themselves and they only stop when they are shouted down by the general crowd, and even then they don't stop. These kinds of fights or tense scenarios should never even occur, and would not if the boundaries where out front and not some unknown wall that is pushed to an unhealthy place time and again. The addition of those, quite innocently after all, asking about connoisseurship, how to collect, history, value, potential for value appreciation etc. create further tensions to an already strained atmosphere. All that information is important to help people understand the guitar, but belongs in its own category for two reasons; it is a vast discipline on its own worthy of a place of study, and it sets up a decided conflict of interest for those who are trying to make a living building guitars.
In the "real world" a maker would be paid money for his or her opinion, or the opinion would be given as a professional courtesy to a regular customer. That is how the string instrument business works. It's not good for makers to have a website where you not only have to compete with zero boundaries for how much a person can self-promote, but also be in a situation where it's as if the users of the Foro feel an entitlement to your opinion, which you should be paid for, or be given customer loyalty in exchange.
And to bring it home and address your situation, there should be a more careful separation between self-promotion, commerce and the development of connoisseurship because not having those boundaries in place hurts the development of beginners. Builders at all levels of guitar making can give valuable information to the discourse on the Foro, but this will not happen if the more experienced builders get shut out or feel unappreciated or have to exist in a context that is adversarial due to lack of boundaries.
The real question is how long will it take for users to ask for a more structured environment that keeps fights and tensions from building into shouting matches? And will those boundaries be established and tended to by the gardener or be delegated out to sub gardeners? For example, if you had few guys like Lenador, who's shown he's a stand up and even handed guy, tend the various sections and quench disagreements before they happen there could be more dialog about both process and connoisseurship. The atmosphere is getting hostile because the guitar makers that populate the luthery section are virtually powerless to run the section democratically. If the boundaries where more clear the process of talking about process could continue at several levels at once.
It's really simple: Separate the development of connoisseurship and commerce from the process of learning to make guitars. People should think about that issue as a part of developing aficion for guitar making.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Builders at all levels of guitar making can give valuable information to the discourse on the Foro, but this will not happen if the more experienced builders get shut out or feel unappreciated or have to exist in a context that is adversarial due to lack of boundaries.
For what little it's worth my opinion, to say that I agree on your post. This section of the forum is really very important and interesting because it is a kind of "open book" knowledge of you luthiers.....it is very rare to find this in other forum. For this reason, perhaps, it is time that YOU LUTHIERS set out the precise rules of this section, it also will avoid situations of self-promotion and tones that result in removal from the forum of other important luthiers.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to Escribano)
As a player and buyer of guitars I don't mind self-promotion and commerce, in fact I am happy to hear it. I also very much enjoy reading the luthiers building discussions even though I have absolutely no intention of ever making a guitar. These two often end up in the same thread creating tension and diluting content so I think it is a great idea to have two sections, then each can function to full potential.
Is "connoisseurship and commerce" too long and too pretentious a name for the new section?
Or "guitar aficion and commerce"?
(Maybe the epic "Conde Questions" thread could be moved there to start the section off!)
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to athrane77)
Escribano,
I was chewing on this all day and I came up with two ideas for section designations: One is Luthiery: Studio Practice dealing with the nuts and bolts of building and repair work.
The other is more difficult to classify, but perhaps someone can knock around the idea of Guitarmaking: History and Aficion, which would cover identification, auction history, provenance and current market values etc. And of course be the place where self promo materials would be posted.
Those are my best shots at creating clear topic headings....perhaps someone has better ideas? Please mention them!
__________________________________
And for the record, if I were to have a time machine, Faustino Conde' in his prime would be one of the blokes I go visit.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
I think you already have enough categories - maybe one or two can be renamed but need I remind you of the (mythical) quote by Gaius Petronius Arbiter? No, I didn't think so. Luthiery concerns the making of stringed instruments, not the selling or the modelling. That's General as it stands isn't it? Whether one considers the insistent presentation of techniques held dear to some as discussion of making, or of self-promotion is the difficulty, probably for Admin. The next thing that struck me from what you say Bananasensei is the extent to which a maker will want to part with what they see as hard won info. Well, they don't have to but if the forum is to be of interest to them, this sort of arcane stuff is important to exchange otherwise why are they members?
And back on topic - why are people so worked up about so-called negative relief when it is only a very small fraction of a millimetre? Well within the margin of error for most amateur woodworkers. Why do people talk about micro-attention to braces when soundboards seem unaffected by being split up their length and cleated? I don't know but no-one seems to offer any science, preferring to rely on the self-serving notion of 'the unknown technique' (please imagine Frank Zappa saying this..). I'm not mocking it - you can't describe 'sense' and experience is king, but wood is a material and I don't believe in God.
RE: Fastino Conde 1986 without signa... (in reply to estebanana)
How about a clear title that does not need a description.
You could create a new main group called Luthier (however you spell that), under this group you could have: -Guitar building and repair -Guitar history and market - anything related to the guitar market -Conde - questions and comments -and one for Tom Blackshear to talk about how good he is
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