RE: Composing Flamenco

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pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

I think the 'main ' strengths of the guitar are variable, depending on whose hands are exploiting it and who's ears are on the receiving end.

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 23:12:34

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

the admirable Kuang JunHong

Yes he is admirable indeed.

How many 'classical' composers compare favourably with Bach ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 23:30:04

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

My first music album was Sabicas, 78s, flamenco but with Tarrega, Gran Jota de Concierto. with the snare drum effect, the 5th and 6th strings crossed at the 12th fret one atop the other.
Notice his fine articulation. Something of a lost art nowadays And except for the golpe, no percussive attack.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 15:53:36

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

with the snare drum effect, the 5th and 6th strings crossed at the 12th fret one atop the other.

Carlos Montoya used to create the same snare drum effect by crossing the 5th and 6th strings, one atop the other, when he played "Saeta," reproducing with the guitar the various instruments involved in the Easter Week procession in Seville.

Cheers,

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 16:24:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

The problem I have with flamenco is illustrated in the PDL video above which starts out in a very lyrical fashion abut then shifts into flamenco flash mode and becomes overly percussive as a result of the attack. If this is your thing fine but it doesn't exploit the main strengths of the guitar. It is possible to play without such a percussive attack as the admirable Kuang JunHong demonstrates in what would have to be considered great music.

boring. man go to classical forum as suggested.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 17:52:08

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

The problem I have with flamenco is illustrated in the PDL video above which starts out in a very lyrical fashion abut then shifts into flamenco flash mode and becomes overly percussive as a result of the attack. If this is your thing fine but it doesn't exploit the main strengths of the guitar. It is possible to play without such a percussive attack as the admirable Kuang JunHong demonstrates in what would have to be considered great music.

The Bach suites happen to be the very first language i ever learned since my father played and performed them as long as i can remember, first on the guitar, then on alto guitar and nowadays on a lute. We consider it to be the best music available for the instrument. My father knows and played every classical guitar piece worth knowing. Still he was wildly exited when Paco played that tune on stage for the first time and when we returned home in the middle of the night the first thing he did was analyzing that incredible intro. I'm very glad both me and my father aren't so narrow minded as you are, you really miss a lot of beauty and obviously have no clue of the compositorial depth of a piece like La Barrosa.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 20:16:16

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

quote:

Still he was wildly exited when Paco played that tune

So your father equated PDL with Bach. Interesting. But a cat may look at a queen and if I found PDL's blazing percussive style tedious, I figure that's just my take so I wouldn't look down your nose at a less informed aficionado of the guitar. And if these hallowed precincts of the mystic art of flamenco are unwilling to listen to some great guitar picking by an 11 yo, it's your loss.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 20:43:21

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

Now I suppose as keeper of the winds ,from a Greek Mythology perspective, your remit would be to get all those opinions from all four points of the musical compass and bring them together by bagging them all up without allowing the greedy or overly wanting to open it up and extend the cycle for all in a detrimental way? But instead of just passing the bag over and hoping the receivers will use the content in an appropriate way you've opened it before passing it on and allowed the now soiled contents to infect the new holders....think that makes sense if we are to look at your name and perceive a connection? Although I could have got the whole thing wrong and misunderstood who you are and what you are trying to bring to the table...whilst remembering the table in question is a large ,multi national table which has a few plates on it which are full of goodies specifically aimed at satisfying the appetites of flamenco enthusiasts ....not that its only a flamenco diet but perhaps remembering that the content has a heavy and healthy bias to that subject matter.
Now I've brought a couple of classical type threads to the table, and in fairness have hoped for a wink or two of appreciation concerning the content of those posts but I've never expected to have a large percentage of a very keenly loyal to subject matter group, jump ship or even slightly bend towards another style, and again, in fairness if I was seeking a totally sympathetic audience then I should too have taken those threads to a more appropriate forum or place.
Now at the risk of sounding even more patronizing and blatantly hypocritical I have really enjoyed a fair percentage of your input....as long as you are not trying to convert the masses, walk on water or indeed ,turn said water into wine , if you get my drift?
You are ,I believe ,a member with a shed load of valuable life experience that you could share at the foro's table if you could just accept who is sharing the table and why they are sitting there in the first place.
I really don't intend to insult you or any other member with this diatribe and apologize if I have ............though i think the message is clear and I hope fair.

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 22:50:08

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

what pink is trying to say is that you can bugger off if you don't want to talk flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 1:16:49

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Still he was wildly exited when Paco played that tune

So your father equated PDL with Bach. Interesting. But a cat may look at a queen and if I found PDL's blazing percussive style tedious, I figure that's just my take so I wouldn't look down your nose at a less informed aficionado of the guitar. And if these hallowed precincts of the mystic art of flamenco are unwilling to listen to some great guitar picking by an 11 yo, it's your loss.

You seem to be an equally bad reader as a (flamenco) listener. I never stated my father equated PDL with Bach (although La Barrosa is equally dear to me), nor that i/we can't enjoy some great (classical) guitar picking by an 11 yo...... i believe i claimed one can enjoy both!
And as far as looking down ones nose is concerned, when i stated composing is basically a matter of sitting down with the intend to create, adding it is a shame i don't do it more often myself since i like to believe i have a certain talent to recycle music in a decent and tasteful way, your reaction was

quote:

O dear- while what you have composed could be of great beauty and totally original, the odds are stacked against it being anything but trite. Be advised it takes talent to produce works of beauty or inspiration. Perhaps because flamenco seems more defined by technique (fast picado) than anything else you might be forgiven imagining you are an accomplished composer

When i praised La Barrosa for being such a work of beauty and great inspiration your reaction was again that video only illustrated the problem you have with flamenco, being overly percussive and not exploiting the strength of the guitar (to back this up you posted a composition of Bach, by far the greatest composer ever). In a later post you even called PDL's blazing percussive style tedious. I can indeed interpret that as just an opinion, but i can also interpret that as the reaction of a lover of classical guitar looking down his nose at the flamenco guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 1:26:36

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to Erik van Goch)

If someone looks for lyrical qualities he can always listen to toque libre. If that remains the only element of Flamenco he can enjoy... go for CLASSICAL!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 13:30:23

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

Composing Flamenco? Time will eliminate your problems. Just keep on that what you're already doing , learning a lot of falsetas, listening to cante, just listen and play what you enjoy and what you like. My main source of inspiration is just all that stuff I have learned in my life. This source gets bigger every day, like my inspiration either. The first piece you'll "compose", will be more or less an imitation of the style of other great musiciasn and composers. Your "own" stuff, more or less, a so called "real composition", is another thing. The stuff of the most composers is always a mix of original ideas and imitation.
However, calm down, grab your guitar, smoke something nice and you'll compose

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 14:18:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

I can indeed interpret that as just an opinion, but i can also interpret that as the reaction of a lover of classical guitar looking down his nose at the flamenco guitar.

Erik, your point is well understood I am sure, but you are sort of wasting electrons responding to aeolus further. This all started back when I made a personal assesment of Segovia's career and importance and he did not like that, clearly. Without checking my credentials (degree in music, studying classical guitar), assumed that a "flamenco guitarist" could not possible give a meaningfull assessment of the man and "his" music. His resentment toward some of my conclusions, obviously remains as can be seen by the random non constructive "classical guitar is superior" type postings, any time it might seem a good time to "troll" in a topic. Of course it is irritating, but best not to get into the back and forth thing again and again, as you won't be convincing anyone of anything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 17:51:37

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

quote:

This all started back when I made a personal assesment of Segovia's career and importance and he did not like that, clearly. Without checking my credentials (degree in music, studying classical guitar), assumed that a "flamenco guitarist" could not possible give a meaningfull assessment of the man and "his" music. His resentment toward some of my conclusions,

Not at all as my enthusiasm for Segovia long since dimmed and I am aware of your credentials. What is great and not great will need the test of time. Songs in the 30s like Stardust were thought to last for the ages. Pop music and folk with few exceptions has a short shelf life. And isn't flamenco folk? In it's original conception an oral tradition...gone with the wind.? So all this talk about "great " composers here kinda set me off my rocker and I though a reality check was necessary or at least perhaps a salutary experience. But I see controversy and a different point of view is unwelcome so I'll sign out and promise not to intrude evermore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 19:27:51

Guest

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

folk?

wonder if Barrios will stand the test of time....steel strings and all...

on the composing topic
i asked Antonio Rey how he composes...
he summed it up quite simply
study everything....learn to play what the masters play...transcribe...{by ear not tab or score }
then its down to
melody
Rhythm
harmony

he then got me to sing a short phrase
we put it on the guitar...
played around with it..
x amount of chords....x amount of rhythm variation...articulations... etc etc

then the elusive and ephemeral element became obvious to me
making it flamenco....

and having the the time left in this life to transcribe the masters...

oh yeah
although not flamenco i asked yamandu costa the same question
he said he likes to whistle while sitting on the can....sometimes sitting with the guitar...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 19:41:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

quote:

What is great and not great will need the test of time.

History is written by the winners, not necessarily the virtuous........

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 19:58:08

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

folk with few exceptions has a short shelf life.

some of the songs my great-grandfather sang were hundreds of years old, in some cases dating back to the Elizabethan era

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 11:15:57

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

QUOTE: aeolus
''But I see controversy and a different point of view is unwelcome so I'll sign out and promise not to intrude evermore. ''

I don't agree with or accept the whole of this statement at all.
This forum is based on many opinions ,the majority of which differ. So the /a idifference in opinion s is inherent in making this forum work.

QUOTE: pink
''You are ,I believe ,a member with a shed load of valuable life experience that you could share at the foro's table if you could just accept who is sharing the table and why they are sitting there in the first place.''

You leaving is an unnecessary act which , if you consider the above statement , can be remedied by accepting what you have joined and who you share that membership
with.

Think about it

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 20:58:43

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to pink)

Don't worry Pink, we just got a new member 'Tritonus', I am sure he will be able to supply us with discord whenever he feels we need it.

What next, 'Contrarianus' ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2013 22:26:47

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Composing Flamenco (in reply to bursche)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

If someone looks for lyrical qualities he can always listen to toque libre. If that remains the only element of Flamenco he can enjoy... go for CLASSICAL!!!

There still remains a huge difference in tonal quality/ambition between a flamenco player and a classical player. I used to start my flamenco concerts with this provocative song

--7----------7----------7---------7---------5--------3--------3--------2-------0--------0---
------0----------0---------0---------0---------0--------0--------0--------0-------0----------
----------0----------0--------0---------0---------0--------0--------0--------0-------0------- etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--0--------------------------------0----------------------------0--------------------------------

I was never pleased with the sound of it simply because i am not able to produce the tonal quality needed to make it shine. But like i said, it was only mend to tease the audience for apr. 30 seconds and right after the openings line i would turn it into an funny introduction to granainas.

--7----------7----------7---------7---------5--------3----------3--------2--------0---------0--
------0---------0----------0---------0---------0--------0-------0-----0--------0-----0------0--
---------5---------5----------5---------5---------5--------5----5---5-------4-----------2---2-- etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--0---------------------------------0------------------------------0----------------------------0-

Funny enough, as soon as that first granainas note appears my ears somehow switch to flamenco mode and the same sound that was pretty unacceptable during the first round suddenly sounds pretty agreeable in the second round.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2013 14:35:38