Did Paco a compasmistake in la tumbona???

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Did Paco a compasmistake in la tumbona???

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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

Did Paco a compasmistake in la tumbo...

Hi! I found a strange thing in Pacos buleria.. Ok in some palos 13 beat compases are correct sometimes..like in the solea. But whats up with a 1/4 compas in a buleria?? Is it correct??

I hope you would like a small compasanalysis , too. Lets discuss it.

Some time ago I checked the bulerias "la Tumbona" and heared that there were something strange at the end of one falseta. PacoEnds the falseta with the last stroke on 1 and than he goes on on count 12... I checked every bar in this falseta and found that he made a half compas OF a half compas.. So a 1/4 compas. Media compas ok but 1/4 compas?? Did you hear that a 1/4 compas is correct? Me not. So sould we call it "lost compas"? or "paco made a new invention, the 1/4 compas"?
The falseta which I mean ends in the second 1:36 with a triplet rasguado (start on 1:09min). This ras. ends on 1. But he goes on playing on 12 ...only 2 counts ahead!

I made a tab of the falseta (Al.F. original). (I started the trans a the second compas of the fals. He ends the first comp. on 10 with a ras. So you can see that its the 10easy.)

Ok at first read the tab only with >>the black numbers<< above. At the end (you can count half compases or complete comases..he is out of compas..Youll see.)
Than read the >>red numbers..<< The red numbers would make the falseta correct in compas. But the red numbers and the black arent in the same time!! They are different in 1/4 compas somewhere.

So at the end..Paco made a 1/4 compas somewhere which isnt correct (all people told me there are 1/2 compases but 1/4 is false...) Yes at the end Paco is out of compas in la tumbona. ????
How can this be? Please take some time to check the falseta and my jpeg. Than tell me if there is any trick inside.. I cant see that its correct in compas played. *confuseeeed*

here the tab for playing it.
http://rapidshare.de/files/7567822/latumbona_compasconfused.gp4.html

here the mp3
http://rapidshare.de/files/7569258/flaseta.mp3.html

slowed down version
http://rapidshare.de/files/7573394/tumbonaconmistake.WMA.html

Here is a plain picture of the tab. You can write on it..if you think you found something.
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/4346/plainyoucanpaintonit0ly.jpg

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 10:53:01

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Hi Doitsujin,
Any chance you can upload the falseta audio in mp3?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 11:32:08

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes take a look again above. I edited the post. Now there is an mp3 and a plain version (jpeg) of the tab. If somebody needs it to explain where the trick is.. He could use it and write on it and post it.

Could somebody make a slowed down version of the mp3 i uploaded? I only have software to do it in realtime. Its not saveable..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 11:39:45

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

i know Paco does a lot of 6 (half) compases it´s alover the place.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 11:59:43

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

But this time its no half compas with six beats.. Its a 1/4 compas with 3 beats. Or a 3/4 compas with 9 beats. Or its a 15 beat compas. All three are "wrong". You would get your ass kicked in every tablao, or dance shool... In bulerias are only complete compases(12) or half (6).
Does nobody understand the problem here??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 12:06:28

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Doit,
I've played it through a few times and everything is straight 12 beat stuff then as he finishes off the phrase at the end he adds an extra 6...(so the Bflat chord which is normally on 3 is on 9).
Apart from that I can't really hear anything weird going on?

Are you sure your not over-analyzing it?
I often get tied in knots when I do that.
Sometimes I find it better to stand back from it and listen to the whole thing from a rhythm viewpoint rather than looking too closely at the notes.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 12:15:41

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

No, im not overanalyzing.I think you just heared not sharp enough.

Please just try to speak the compas with the record and while you do it, clap every beat with your hands. Than you will see. Its out of compas. No thing with media compas. Really easy to hear. No overything.
Its easy to say that there insnt somethnig irregular. But there is. Trust me. Its really simple to hear, but hard to explain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 12:24:49

Tenshu

Posts: 150
Joined: Oct. 18 2003
From: Belgium

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yep, it's there. The shift starts at about 0:25 I think.

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-T

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 12:43:49

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Here a slowed down version. Count every beat straight to the end. You see it.

http://rapidshare.de/files/7573394/tumbonaconmistake.WMA.html

Thanks Tenshu.. and I started to think if Im crazy^^

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 13:01:50

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

i just listened twice and i get a 12 on the 3rd beat at the end. So somewhere along the falsetas he must have screwed up.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 13:19:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Doit,
I think slowing stuff down is great for picking out notes but is no good for analyzing rhythm IMO.
Listen to the piece again at full speed and count in 2's...ie 2 sets of 3 beats (12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10) it works out perfectly to my ear anyway, with just an extra six added.

I think what's happening is that he picks up the tempo a bit around 00:16 and if you continue with a steady beat, it ends up out.

My opinion only...I'm no expert.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 13:39:49

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes your right in the point that it sounds correct when I hear it as background music. When I "hear" the music it bother me a bit..(I only mean my way of hearing..its for every person different I think) I heared the irregularity without somebody gave me a hint.. It feels really irregular to me, as it is. Also in the fast version... The palmas are clapping very straight in time. No speed change. On this base, its irregular. IMO and I hear it very clear.. dont know why nobody heared it before me??
And if its fast or slow,... compas stays compas..
Its no problem that Paco plays out of compas there... Its a very cool buleria with a strange thing there.. hehe.. I think its great, coz the pros do irregular things, too.^^

No problem with different opinions.. hey this is a discussion. I want that. (^_-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 14:09:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes Doit,
Sometimes it sounds odd to me too if I count it in certain ways.
It's not just a straightforward falseta that's for sure.

I've had this trouble, myself, before, where I'll hear something I really like and try to learn it...and when I listen to it closely it sounds out of compás!
It drives me nuts at times.
Then maybe months after I've forgotten about it, I hear it again and suddenly see that it actually is in compás, but I was hearing it the wrong way and just reinforcing that by playing it over and over again and counting individual beats etc.
The question I tend to ask myself is...Would Paco de Lucia, (who knows Bulerias rhythm backwards), really screw up and play out of compás?
...and if he did, would he really make a recording of it?
So that would tend to make me rethink what I was hearing.

Would be good to hear other member's views on this.
I like these kind of discussions...I usually end up learning a lot from them.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 16:43:12

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes I like this discussions , too. The bad thing is that is not easy to be neutral. So whatever I write, please dont understand it as atack.(I write this to guard against a war ^^)
So Im very happy that you take part in the discussion! I dont know why so less people join the discussion, coz its a critical one. We are talking about Paco de Lucia... Its not a nameless player.

Ok back to the discussion. I could turn it and view it from many directions, but it stays out of compas for me. When you only follow the 3 beats not very sharp..paco plays a bit on the side of the compas at the beginning.. It makes a falseta more interesting when its not played like a machine, than really playing with the compas..so from this time on the shifted compas sounds correct again. If anybody does an incorrect compas and plays the right llamada at the end it could sound right. I think the irregular compas is on the cd COZ all know that Paco is perfect. So nobody would await a 1/4 compas from him..Maybe he used the artistic liberty...Maybe. But in bulerias?
So Paco knows he plays 99% perfect..and all people know that. So I think he made this record with a "one take" all people just heared it...he didnt analyzed the compas, just fell it along..so he didnt attract atention on it, too. Maybe he knew it.. It sounds almost correct..so why not. Maybe he heared this thing too late and the CD was released..

At the end..Paco is out of compas.. ^^ no way. Its very clear. Count it, easy.
Its like finding out that the earth isnt a plate...!

just wait ..finally everybody will accept the truth.(^-^) hehe

Come on..more people shoud say something about the falseta.

EDIT put an f in the word s h i..t e d (u_u);;; uups.. (english is hard, isnt it?)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 18:58:29

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Doit,
I can definitely see it from your point of view...that if you count it slowly, one note at a time it appears to be out of compás.
But if you just listen to it at full speed, then somehow it is exactly in compás.
How do you work that out?
The reason I say this is because of my previous post, which probably should have read, "How come all the Bulerias Falsetas I like are the ones that sound out of compás?" LOL!
But it's true!!
These are the ones that "throw" people a little and thus create the excitement IMO.
I've heard dozens of them, not only from the Greats, but of some of the minor guitarists in the peñas in Jerez.
They really get me down...'cos it's as if they have a facility with the rhythm that escapes us.
For instance I really had a problem with the intro to "Cipres".
To my mind it was totally out of compás.
In the end I thought it was a sort of "free form" intro.
It was only after listening to it many times that I realized that he didn't put the main beats on the 12 but on the 10 that suddenly it became obvious!

So Doit, I'd be careful about accusing Paco of playing out of compás, (for artistic licence or any other reason), before you've totally exhausted every possible explanation of how you hear it.

Personally, I think since Paco has been playing since he was 5 or 6 years old and rose up from a humble Flamenco obsessed family in Algeciras to becoming what everybody accepts as being the greatest living Flamenco guitarist ever.....
I would have to question my own way of hearing it first, before I would claim that Paco was out of compás.
I know what your saying Doit, amigo...I get the same annoyances as well when I hear stuff!
But I tend to put it on a back burner...maybe something I'll see in a few years time..LOL!

cheers

Ron

PS.

We need some more input on this guys!
Don't be shy..
Let's hear your opinion on this timing issue.
This is how we all learn.
Ricardo...I have every faith that Ricardo will be able to explain everything.

Ricardo's got a good brain for these kinds of arguements.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:13:47

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Im willing to get convince with my statements.

Why should it be in compas when its fast when its not when its slow? Its exacly the same.like a mirror.
There comes a buleria in my mind. rincones de loles of tomatio. He plays the crazyest rythmic bulerias Ive ever heared. Nothing seems to be in compas, but in the end he finishes every time on the right beat. But in the flaseta Paco shifted 1/4 compas.. Hey its really safe. You cant say that its wrong. I proved it...

EDIT: but I will hear your opinion..ok? maybe I change mine..m a y b e

Yes Paco is "the" greatest flamenco guitarrist who exist. No doubt. But I have not to be Paco de Lucia to hear that.. Its like saying (when you arent able to speak fluent english you are not authorised to say that there is a mistake in the word "mistace") I dont have to be an english person to find the mistake in this word...although my english is close to crap.

quote:

We need some more input on this guys!
Don't be shy..
Let's hear your opinion on this timing issue.
This is how we all learn.
Ricardo...I have every faith that Ricardo will be able to explain everything.

Yes in this point I agree 100% with you.^^

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:28:50

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Doit,
Your English is very good, a few misspellings here and there but very good.
Doit, I have a German friend here that I see from time to time.
He goes to Germany a lot and tells me what's happening there.
One thing that always makes me laugh, is that he says that German people hate things to be disorderly and like things to obey certain predictable rules.
(Actually it's not that far from the British, as I tell him.)
I'm not saying I'm right here Doit, nor do I want to be...
I sort of keep an open mind on it and don't trust my own logic as I've been proved wrong so many times before.
I think your analysis has been presented excellently with your tabs and mp3.
Duende and Tenshu have already agreed with you.
I am expressing a bit of doubt.
It's now up to others to look at the evidence and come up with their own conclusions.

This is what makes these kind of debates so interesting IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:41:50

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Yes germans are funny. Some month ago I got a parking ticket for 5min parking in front of a kiosk... 10€ for 5min!! argh!! %min!! And I didnt see any policegirl!!??? Crazy!!

Thanks for your comments! (Especially on my english!!.. I allways got very bad ratings in shool..

)
Yes please could some more people join the talk? I feel a bit bad (dank?) while arguing against Paco.. (O.o);;; But a man have to do what a man have to do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 20:55:42

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

that if you count it slowly, one note at a time it appears to be out of compás.
But if you just listen to it at full speed, then somehow it is exactly in compás.

Yes, i agree on that. But im shocked; how weird is that? I have no explanation for it.
I only can say about what impression i got on the audio, since im not a pro on counting and notation. I would say the "critical area" is only between 27 an 30s. The rest sounds fine, even in slow motion/speed.
Only my view...

quote:

I feel a bit bad (dank?) while arguing against Paco

ps: yes, you should feel very, very bad on that, doit!!

offtopic: does the word "kiosk" exist in english? really?

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:02:06

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Tell me Doit,
Is it an Arts course or Science course you are doing at University?
The reason I ask is because, when I was down at Oxford getting lessons from the Flamenco guitarist "Rafael", he asked what I did for a job.
I told him I was an Engineer and he said that that was half of the problem.
"Scientists and Engineers always over complicate things when the the reality is always much more simple" he said....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:06:25

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Ron.M)

now i´ve listened 5 times while clapping the basic 12 3 6 8 10 accents and he doeasnt end the falseta right any of thoes times. I see it this way. It sounds musicaly right doesn´t it?
And i guess the palmeros was clapping along to his guitar so they would stopp when Paco does an ending rasgueado and come back in again.

I was once told this anecdote (spelling

)
Erik steen witch Ricardo met this summer at G.nuñez sumer course played in a flamenco
company in Holland. All but Erik was Spanish and once he just metioned that -yeah and on 12 everybody yells OLÉ!! (like they do in bulerias). And none of the Spaniards understod what he was on about. What 12!!??! was the reaction. None of the others had any idea about the numbers.

What im getting at here is the fact that when the music is your culture and life you don´t have to take a step back and look at what realy is going on.
You just play like it supposed to sound.

What realy bothers me is that Paco didn´t notice. Or did he? and maybe left the best take of the song knowing he made a slight error.
This buleria will always be one of my favorites anyway cause it´s still sound right in compas
and feels great untill i ruin it by dissecting it

enough said and a lot about noting it was

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:10:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

offtopic: does the word "kiosk" exist in english? really?

Yeah Phrygus,
Telephone Kiosk (Phone box in the street) or a Kiosk selling some odds and ends at a busy station.
It's now an English word.
My German friend was amazed that I used the word "Kitsch" to describe banal crap..LOL!
He said "That's exactly the same word in German!"
I reassured him that it was the same word, now adopted in English!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:13:36

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

another theorie is that he rushes the 12 after the ending on 10.
haven´t check .. just a thought.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:16:45

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to duende)

quote:

and maybe left the best take of the song knowing he made a slight error.

Henrik,
I honestly don't believe Paco makes "slight errors"

I think "we" do!... LOL!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:20:24

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Ron.M)

now i´ve done more listening and clapping and he is still of by the end of that falseta.
but since theres no dancers.. and it is GREAT music so?.. does it realy matter?

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:22:33

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I honestly don't believe Paco makes "slight errors"

No it wouldt match the image i get when i read interwies and watch that DVD documentary.
something tells me more people would get involved if we were talking about Carlos Montoya,
Diego del Gastor or Melchor de Marchena

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:24:45

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

no its not important if there is a irregularity or not..Its of course GREAT MUSIC! But I found it courious and this is a disscussion forum. So it would be wrong to hush up,or not?.

And yes Ron... I do study as scientist..

But usually I dont overanalyze.. really. Usually I dont count when I play bulerias or alegrias. Only when I learn a new falseta I try to understand it 100%. Than I play it many many times very slow. Than I dont need to count it.
In the nino miguel book of Alain Faucher. Alain Faucher writes on the first pages where miguel did irregular compases. In the solea he did 7 and in an alegria he did around 5.... So there are irregular things on professional recordings... With Paco its only much more amazing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:31:47

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

I think Paco had a bad day and the ones who did the palmas didn't have the guts to tell him. They just got there money and never asked any questions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 21:41:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

hehe, like to see the guy that has the guts to tell PdL that he made a mistake

@Doit: No, dont mind. Acctually its good you posted it. It was interesting to see this analyzed in detail by other forummates.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 22:19:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Did Paco a compasmistake in la t... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Paco's "mistake" was in bar 27 where he had a rhythmic theme going "dah daBRAH dah dadoh, dah daBRAH da dadoh..." and he gave a new down beat accent on what you measured as a count 9 (dah da BRAH dah daBRAH dah dadoh... ). He is feeling that Bb/G accent as the "12" or down beat. But yeah it is off by 3. Nino Miguel did the same thing too sometimes. It would be considered a mistake and would not work with Jerez style palmeros, but Paco might have simply composed it that way and did not notice it was off because they are all feeling that section in three. When accompaning dancers solo de pies, you are safer sticking to 3's until a clear closing in a lot of cases. That is the fun with improvising in flamenco sometimes, know where to catch the remate. Faucher allways transcribes bulerias in 3 because this feel happens occasionally. I am going to search hard for a live version of this falseta I might have on video somewhere. But you are not crazy amigo.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2005 23:42:31

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