RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuckles ... or drive with the knuckle

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hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

quote:

The middle knuckle method kicks in when the finger makes contact with the string and the difference between large and small knuckle methods in that final small movement following string contact is very hard to distinguish on a video

No Hamia, its not hard to distinguish in the video. Its painfully obvious in the video.
Its clear at this point, you simply don't want to see it.

But hey, i know denial quite well, and i've been in that state plenty
in my life, so in that regard, i understand.
Hope you can leave that state very soon. :)

I said that the visual difference between the large knuckle method and the small knuckle method is very hard to notice. This is my own experience. There is a big difference in feeling though. So given that I have a hard time noticing (visually) the difference between the 2 methods in my own playing it is not surprising that I find it hard to state with 100% certainty what Paco is doing in a vid. When I play with the middle knuckle it looks pretty much exactly like Paco (not quite as fast yet!).

I don't see how you can be so sure of your statements given that you have no experience of the middle knuckle method. I think maybe you are in denial!

Try it out for a year or so and then you'll be able to speak with more authority. It will be tough going though - even for you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 8:23:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14823
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

quote:

I was going on what GM said and also what Ruben Diaz has also described in a video on Youtube.

As I feared.

quote:

And I find it odd that you are only familiar with one method but are very certain!

I never said I was not familiar with pulling with the knuckle method. Years ago I described the difference of the two as this has always been a hot topic. I too thought that was happening at first glance (when I first saw PDL play) until I sat down and experimented and got hold of some better video footage. Aaron shear describes middle knuckle movement and the importance of the relaxed tip in order to do it. It was not long before I realized that was NOT what Paco and others where doing at all.

As I said If what you have now works for you that's fine. But don't continue simply because you THINK that is what Paco is doing, because he is not.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 14:47:14

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, what do you mean by the relaxed tip joint? Are you referring to Shearer's older books, where he directs the student to have his tips relaxed like paintbrushes. In his later books, he abandons this idea. (not that I think Shearer's ideas are of any particular value).

The tip joint of the middle finger has always been a bit of an enigma for me. I always used to try to keep it stiff because I heard that Manolo Sanlucar said to. But that doesn't really work well for me. Now when my rest strokes break down, it is always the m tip joint stiffening or not relaxing enough. I see a lot of good players where it almost appears that it's permanently hyperextended, although that doesn't seem physically possible. For me, it seems I have to prepare (using the knuckle joint), which causes the tip to slightly straighten, then the middle joint takes over and kind of sweeps through.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 15:02:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

In his later books, he abandons this idea. (not that I think Shearer's ideas are of any particular value).

I don't rate Shearers earlier books but the second set represent the most considered and intelligent attempt at a method for learning sightreading for the guitar that I have seen. I get really depressed when a pupil turns up with one of the old books.

Also Shearers ideas on body use in general are far more rational and well considered that those I have seen GM or seen RD espousing. In fact the latter couldn't look more twitchy and unbalanced if he tried.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 15:14:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14823
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Ricardo, what do you mean by the relaxed tip joint? Are you referring to Shearer's older books, where he directs the student to have his tips relaxed like paintbrushes. In his later books, he abandons this idea. (not that I think Shearer's ideas are of any particular value).

The tip joint of the middle finger has always been a bit of an enigma for me. I always used to try to keep it stiff because I heard that Manolo Sanlucar said to. But that doesn't really work well for me. Now when my rest strokes break down, it is always the m tip joint stiffening or not relaxing enough. I see a lot of good players where it almost appears that it's permanently hyperextended, although that doesn't seem physically possible. For me, it seems I have to prepare (using the knuckle joint), which causes the tip to slightly straighten, then the middle joint takes over and kind of sweeps through.

To put it simply the tip joints should not be curled like when doing arpegio. That means they need to be straightened. A touch of hyper extension is ok so long as your tips are not floppy, or if you are double jointed as they say where they bend all the way back. That won't work, or rather it will slow you down a bit as it takes time for the finger to bend back. IN that sense Manlolo Sanlucar advice is right on.

If you watch vicente amigo do arpegio he does a unique rest stroke arpeggio where his tip joints acually come dangerously close to hyper extending too far (A-M-I patterns only). He gets a nice sound out of it and manages the speed and timing just fine, but I can imagine the difficulties for students with similar joints. Oddly when he does picado proper, he is able to keep the tip joint from bending as far, a good example of what I am talking about.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 15:24:24

Ramirez

Posts: 243
Joined: Apr. 16 2005

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to junheng)

I think this video illustrates what Ricardo is getting at. And should hopefully stop this nonsense debate once and for all...

Watch this video of Paco from 0:52. The movement clearly doesn't come from the middle joint...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 15:39:53

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks, Ricardo, the only thing I don't get is how you straighten them. Mine straighten when I push with the finger and relax the joint, which extends it through that pressure. That creates an advantageous angle and then I can release using mostly middle joint movement. Is there another way to straighten besides that? It would be nice if there were, because it certainly seems inefficent.

This guy here seems to have pretty floppy tip joints, but he can move. Starting at 2:20, it's pretty clear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 22:32:10

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

In his later books, he abandons this idea. (not that I think Shearer's ideas are of any particular value).

I don't rate Shearers earlier books but the second set represent the most considered and intelligent attempt at a method for learning sightreading for the guitar that I have seen. I get really depressed when a pupil turns up with one of the old books.

Also Shearers ideas on body use in general are far more rational and well considered that those I have seen GM or seen RD espousing. In fact the latter couldn't look more twitchy and unbalanced if he tried.

D.

Shearer's ideas about memorizing, clapping the rhythm, imagining the moves, and only then playing, are excellent. High-focus, serious learning, breaking it down. His ideas about body use are plausible but I see little evidence that they help the student. I have more success using a completely different set of ideas. For the most part, I like Charles Duncan's stuff better. GM and RD's stuff seems neither physiologically plausible nor backed up by their playing IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 22:37:13

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

For the most part, I like Charles Duncan's stuff better.

I know the Charles Duncan stuff and kids quite like it. Never seen anyone really sight read after getting through it. The green book in the second series by Shearer WILL WORK for pretty much anyone. The trick is to pick up the book and read right through it from the start every time and get a little further forward. He isolates the special difficulties of reading on the guitar (identification of string,selection of RH finger, selection of LH finder, simultaneity) and really breaks them down. The music is deliberately banal and impossible to remember so that each time the kids have to genuinely read. Most of the other methods end up with kids taking a long time to learn fingerings and not really developing the skill of reading in the way a regular string player can. Lots of mid level classical guitarists just use music as a jolt to their memory, Shearer really thought about why this was and the massive difference between his later works and every other method reflect this ( yup I am a fan).

D.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 22:57:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I was talking about Duncan's thoughts on technique, not sight reading. It's good to know Shearer has a viable method for teaching true sight reading, but why? I don't consider sight reading important because I'm not going to be doing chamber music or studio work. I spent my first few years pleasurably playing through hundreds of etudes, that's how I learned. I can read far faster than I can memorize or than my technique can carry me. The only time I wish I were a better sight reader is when I'm reading some sort of analysis on the toilet and can't get to a piano.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 23:08:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

few years pleasurably playing through hundreds of etudes

It's good to know Shearer has a viable method for teaching true sight reading, but why?

I know what you mean, I spent a long time learning to 'sight read' Bach and Sor and would happily do so again.

We live a long time Miguel and you might meet a fiddle player or, better still, a flautist and you might want to play through, for example, Mr Duncan's excellent edition of Baroque suites for guitar and Flute (Telleman has never been so much fun).

Like all crafts good sight reading is it's own reward.

And any pupil who could more easily get involved in organised music at school would be glad of the confidence as so many classical guitarists shy away from group music making for this very reasonl.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 10 2013 23:17:56

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

Has this Zapateado by Javier Conde been posted? His fingers are straight in the initial picado at the beginning of the song and again when the run is repeated. Doesn't look like the middle knuckles are the source of the movement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 0:04:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

There's a difference between applying force to restrain movement and applying a force in order to create movement.

The way I see it, it goes like this:

Middle joint - force is used to keep a bent/straight position, regardless of what happens from this joint to the tip of the finger (floppy/tight).

Knuckle - force is applied to generate the strenght that will move the string.

Obviously, the whole finger is part of a system. In the end its the whole thing that will contribute to your perfect picado movement.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 0:38:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Middle joint - force is used to keep a bent/straight position, regardless of what happens from this joint to the tip of the finger (floppy/tight).

Knuckle - force is applied to generate the strenght that will move the string.

Obviously, the whole finger is part of a system. In the end its the whole thing that will contribute to your perfect picado movement.

I agree absolutely.

Me from page 1.
'You are at liberty to choose the degree of curvature of the fingers that gives you the sound you want but you strike with the whole finger. If you try and strike by increasing the curvature then your body will probably ignore you and strike from the main knuckle. However if you insist one the small knuckle and your body tries to do as you tell it then then the results will be awful.'

Also

'Hold you hand in front of you, waggle a finger from the main joint=fast and free and powerful.

Waggle only the end half (from the middle joint) = tight and weak.

Page 2

'The muscles controlling the tip joint have to work harder to MAINTAIN the angle but the power is coming from the big joint.

Think of it like swimming the front crawl. You cup your hand to increase friction but you are not swimming with your hand you are using your whole body or you are a terrible swimmer. '

I am gonna try one last time to get people to do the empirical experiment, takes a bout three seconds.

Hold your hand in front of you , waggle i an m in opposite directions naturally, fast eh ? Now waggle from the middle joint in opposite directions. It is sh1t isn't it.

Reflexes don't get faster ever. You can get faster at synchronising complicated sequences of fine movements but you can't get away from the way the hand is wired. Loads of independance at the hand joint and very little as you reach the tip of the finger.

Do the expirement it takes three seconds.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 0:53:47

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

GB, when I do the experiment, I find that the straight finger waggling much superior. Apparently there is some evidence that when piano players put on the afterburners, they abandon the gently curved fingers and go flat. Even though they are taught not to!

That being said, there is a major complicating factor here. A pluck is not a strike. Air-guitar waggling demonstrates the ability to waggle the finger in the air, and does not necessarily say anything about manipulating a string. I don't swing at the string with an immobile finger and use momentum or mass to get through it. I don't think most good players do, either.

I touch the string and then release it using the middle joint and tip joint participation. I'm not sure it's that much different than the normal human reflex of closing the fist, except in the timing of when each joint fires. There is a very good and fast classical player named Philip Hii who emphasizes middle joint movement and tip joint flexibility. Perhaps there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 3:11:30

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Ramirez)

quote:

I think this video illustrates what Ricardo is getting at. And should hopefully stop this nonsense debate once and for all...

Watch this video of Paco from 0:52. The movement clearly doesn't come from the middle joint...

Not only is Paco not primarily using the middle joint, but the guy who supposedly recommends it, Graf-Martinez, is not doing what he says in his own video!

When I checked out the G-M vid (after a previous similar discussion here) it was clear that although he said not to move the knuckle (meta-carpo-phalangeal) joint, he actually was moving that joint, in conjunction with the middle joint.

When I experimented to see if I could actually do what he said, I found it impossible as movement from the knuckle was necessary to get the finger tip away from the just-played string back to the starting point for the next note!

I see from the web page posted above with different guitarists that G-M has now modified his teaching and says the previous instruction was an exaggeration.

If anyone can play picado moving only the middle joint of their fingers I would like to see it.

My guess is that the reason some people think Paco only plays with the middle joint is that in some vids it does look like there is movement in the middle joint, but any movement that I see there always seems secondary to the movement in the knuckle joint. His hands always look so relaxed, there is no stiffness, so small movements are inevitable in the other joints. Also the movement in the knuckle joints is often really, really small (minimal-movement), which adds to the illusion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 10:46:53

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

Not only is Paco not primarily using the middle joint, but the guy who supposedly recommends it, Graf-Martinez, is not doing what he says in his own video!

When I checked out the G-M vid (after a previous similar discussion here) it was clear that although he said not to move the knuckle (meta-carpo-phalangeal) joint, he actually was moving that joint, in conjunction with the middle joint.

When I experimented to see if I could actually do what he said, I found it impossible as movement from the knuckle was necessary to get the finger tip away from the just-played string back to the starting point for the next note!

I see from the web page posted above with different guitarists that G-M has now modified his teaching and says the previous instruction was an exaggeration.

If anyone can play picado moving only the middle joint of their fingers I would like to see it.

My guess is that the reason some people think Paco only plays with the middle joint is that in some vids it does look like there is movement in the middle joint, but any movement that I see there always seems secondary to the movement in the knuckle joint. His hands always look so relaxed, there is no stiffness, so small movements are inevitable in the other joints. Also the movement in the knuckle joints is often really, really small (minimal-movement), which adds to the illusion.

Dude, you haven't been following the thread. The middle knuckle is used to add on a powerful follow-through motion once the finger hits the string. It's not used so much to move the finger into the position to hit the string. For that the large knuckle is still used. If you try experimenting with this method you should be aware that it takes months to even get off the ground.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 11:33:41

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

quote:

Dude, you haven't been following the thread.

just because I haven't posted in this thread doesn't mean I haven't been reading the posts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2013 22:31:41

junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

Just wanna say thank you to hamia for mentioning VLC (video player) in his earlier post. I had been using 'Windows Movie Player' to slow down these videos, which kinda worked, but wasn't very satisfactory.

Now I'm using VLC and it's a breeze ... and it's so quick and flexible too!

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html

You watch your video in VLC ... And whenever you want to speed it up you just hit the 'minus' (-) key on the keyboard several times ... and it slows down in steps. And whenever you want to speed it up you just hit the 'plus' (+) key on the keyboard several times ... and it speeds up again in steps.

Don'cha luv free and open source software? junheng :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 7:03:46

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to junheng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junheng

You watch your video in VLC ... And whenever you want to speed it up you just hit the 'minus' (-) key on the keyboard several times ... and it slows down in steps. And whenever you want to speed it up you just hit the 'plus' (+) key on the keyboard several times ... and it speeds up again in steps.

And also there is a button that allows the video to be clicked through frame by frame.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 14:41:12

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

Regarding VLC, dont forget the AB loop button. Easy and very useful.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 14:54:21

junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

Ah, hamia and Rui Martins. Thank you for that. I see that I can see these 'Frame by frame' and 'AB loop' by clicking on:
View > Advanced controls

Cool. :) junheng

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 17:40:20

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

You can also play youtube videos directly on VLC and save them too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 18:06:24

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

this is true ,, but if you go to 'www.guitar-tube.com'' you can loop videos ..slow them down , and zoom in etc . and you dont have to download them ......just thought id mention it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 20:34:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to El Kiko)

Yeah but... you have to pay for it.

VLC does all that without downloading/paying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 20:50:16

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

no you dont , just register ...its free....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2013 22:01:35

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to hamia)

Then why does it ask for money?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2013 2:36:24

junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

VLC does all that without downloading/paying.

Rui, I've just tried that. I went into Youtube and copied the URL onto my clipboard. I then opened VLC and tried several options under 'Media' in the menu.

But to no avail. By several methods I managed to successfully (apparently) insert the URL as a media source ... but it wouldn't play a sausage. Do you have any ideas??

Having said that, it doesn't bother me too much cos I've found a VERY easy way to download Youtube videos onto my machine ... and I've currently got masses of GB of space there, so space isn't an issue. I downloaded a add-on program for Firefox:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/download-youtube/

Unlike most Youtube downloaders, which IMO are pure cons, this one ACTUALLY WORKS. It has never failed to download a Youtube video for me (unless there is a problem with the video on Youtube itself, of course, which is another matter). There is no charge for it, though the developer asks you to consider making a small donation, which I am determined to do when I get a moment.

Of course, this has to be used within *Firefox*, so no use for Internet Explorer fans.

Cheers. junheng

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2013 6:56:07

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to junheng)

Media - Open Network Stream - Network

This works for me. I dont download videos with VLC, for that I have installed Firefox and that plugin you mentioned (I use chrome for browsing).

Try again the youtube thing inside VLC, its very useful. You can loop a specific part, slow it down and all this without having to download. It seems that by default, VLC automatically goes for the higher res version of the video.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2013 10:10:52