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How to compose in the style of Passion, Grace & Fire ???
I would like to know if anybody who is into flamenco or jazz-flamenco knows how to compose pieces in the style of the album Passion, Grace & Fire (Al, Paco & John). This is the only musical style that I like and feel home in. My musical knowledge includes harmoic structures, like the relationship of chords and scales and I know all the modes of the major scale, as well as blues scale, harmonic minor, melodic minor, wh-scale, hw-scale, wholetone-scale, chromatic scale (of course), pentatonic scales. And of course I can build up any chord from that scales, if I want to, but usually I use chords that come out of my mind spontaneously, which are almost usual triads, seventh-chords, or chords with diatonic extensions. So, but all of that didn't help me to compose music in the style of AlDi Meola's, Paco de Lucia's and John McLaughlin's "Passion, Grace & Fire" or "The Guitar Trio (Verve)". But that is the only music I love and I want to compose in that style, but I don't know which chords and scales they use. But what I know is, because I did thousands of experiments, that they do not use simple diatonic structures, like diatonic chords in combination with diatonic scales (modes, harmonic minor etc.). Because I ususally play strictly diatonically and that sounds more like pop music than any other thing. If someone knows the compositional system behind AL's, Paco's and John's style, I would like him to post it here.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
Yeah I love that stuff too. I can go into detail but which tune? First of all understand this is a fusion of ideas comming from masters of different styles. Dimeola was into latin stuff, Paco flamenco, Mclaughlin brought Indian classical ideas to the table along with melodic minor. Perhaps you know your scales but not applications? because a lot of the ideas are based on soloing over changes like most jazz players understand.
But the real thing that is advanced about this music is the rhythm. All 3 guys are real masters and that is why they seemingly "keep up" with each other. For example alot of tunes on Passion are in 3/4, 6/8, or 12/8, but they mix up the feels of spanish style hemiolas, flamenco remates and compas (rhythm cycles and stops with strumming), and even one tune has "swing". So lots of stuff is happening at a very advanced level in the rhythm department. So if you want to pick a tune I could talk more specifically for you. Like the Indian scales and lydian dominant function in "Aspan", or "chiquito" that uses the compas of "Alegrias". So you have to know where these guys are comming from when making a "fusion".
The best way to learn a "style" is to learn the music yourself, note for note, beat for beat. If a transcription is not available then you have to transcribe it yourself. In regards to rhythm this is dangerous if youdont' really understand the base. Hope this helps a little, but pick a tune you are interested in.
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
Thanks Ricardo !!! You seem to know what the three guys are doing ... I already transcribed some of the solo parts of some of the pieces, but the problem is, I can play it, but I don't know where they got those lines from, because I don't see any scale that fits and it also seems that they modulate when soloing. Am I right or don't they modulate ? For example you could play in a piece, which is in the key of A-Minor: Aolian over the Am-Chord, Lokrian over the B-diminished, Ionian over the C-Major etc., that is the way I would do it, so that all is in one key !!! But you also could play without key-relationship, so for example you could play A-Dorian over the Am-Chord, C-Lydian over the Cmaj-Chord etc. that would be a way of chord-scale-relationship thinking, right ? Is that the way they think and play ? I usually don't play in this way because it seems atonal for me, it has the effect that you think you are changing the key every bar. "Sichia" I like very much (I also like the other pieces a lot but) or "Aspan" for example: What chords do they use there, are they really using just simple major, minor triads or seventh chords ? I can not hear which chords they use but they sound like chords that are very different from major and minor. Maybe you can tell me ? And then the rhythms, you are right Ricardo. I always play solos and all of my music without tapping my foot on the ground as a metronome, is that the problem ? But I tried to use my foot as a metronome when listening to Passion, Grace and Fire, but I couldn't find any rhythm on the album where you can tap with the foot, like you can in Rock and Pop music. Why ? Maybe you can help me again a little bit.
One thing which I really would like to know also is: Do they start composing the lead, or do they start with the chords first ? Because nearly all tunes sound like the melodies, solos, lead or whatever you want to call it, are completely written out/composed, it sounds like one ultra long theme.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
Ex, lot of good questions. I will try to touch on most. In general I feel you need to get a base from a good jazz teacher, but perhaps you have already. In anycase, you should be careful with learning any complex music without first understanding where you foot tap goes! It could mean you will have a lot of "unlearning" to do later if you want to feel the melodies in the correct beat. Like I said this music is very advanced though some of it SOUNDS simple. The reason you can't tap your foot, is because your internal beat sense is confused by the synchopation. Nothing to be ashamed of, that is part of the fun with challenging rhythms. To be "inside"it, is a special place.
Ok, soloing over the changes. Like I said they each come from different schools. In terms of changing modes on each chord, yeah that is what they like to do. McLaughlin especially treats each chord as a separate entity and applies a specific scale. To REALLY understand what he likes to do, I HIGHLY recommend his rather pricey instructional DVD. It starts very basic and takes right up to his level. I tried it and could only make it up to chapter 9 (of 12). The test is you have do what he teaches (not your own thing) with on screen chart and backing track. It is fun and really forces you to try it on your own. But it is expensive.
Also I recommend Al Dimeola's instructional vid. He has a different approach, but again it is very revealing how he is treating the chords. Unlike Mc, he does not use modes, but rather colors the common scale with out notes. Paco more or less solos based on positions and rhythm. He is the true improviser in that sense, because he did not really have knowleadge of playing changes before.
One more thing, about the foot tap when soloing. Very important, and if you watch the trio they are ALWAYS tapping away and feeling the groove. So you need to be able to play the changes RHYTHMICALLY, with your foot, without the rhythm section there for you. A good practice I learned years ago from a Paul Gilbert video (vol 2 intense rock?), is to trade off melody with rhythm, one or two bars at a time, keeping it tight with the foot. That way you learn how to imply the changes with your melody, and have a more deliberate solo than some guys who need to hear the changes and fish for notes.
In terms of composing style I can only speculate. Again, Mc and Dimeola come from jazz school so they understand harmony and melody as intertwined, but in the end it is really the ear that says if it is good or not as a composition.
I will listen to Aspan again to give some analysis, I have the idea in my mind now but don't want to lose this post. In the mean time, here is adifferent version of that tune that may help you understand what is going on a bit better:
EDIT 2012: Years later we find the actual trio version of the tune though its not complete, a good reference:
I think of the rhythm as written, 6/8, although if you watch those guys play fast tunes in 3, they are really feeling it like a waltz in ONE. So the foot goes on the downbeat only, and regardles if you feel the subdivision as 2 groups of 3(6/8) or 3 groups of 2(3/4), does not really matter. Infact switching between those feels is a big part of flamenco rhythm too.
Anyway, we can think of it as 6/8 for now. There is a meter change not in the score. Page 2 pretty much should all be 4/4, where the previous 8th note speed stays the same. Then after that A phrygian line (measure 53) it resumes the 6/8 feel and repeats. Towards the end that section of 4/4 repeats, and I feel the rest of the song to the end in 4/4 (all the trade offs and stuff). So that is about it for the rhythm stuff, you can hopefully get the idea of the timing and beat from this score and your ear.
So the Harmony and Melody stuff. Starts of on E, then E11 (D6/E), Cmaj7/E, E11. Just chords. This transposes down a 4th to B. B, B11, Gmaj7/B, B11. But the cool thing is the fast harmonized run is the hole/half diminished or symmetric scale. Harmonized in minor thirds, sound wicked. At the end of this run, the chords do phrygian dom motif (Am-C-B) then modulate to relative major (Am-D7-G) using good ol ii-V-I.
They are now in G,(0:14) but the melody modulates parallel to G phrygian, and the harmony does the same motif as before, but in this key. (Fm-Ab-G, then Fm-Bb-Eb). Notice the rhythmic stop on Eb using rasgueado. Very flamenco idea.
Now a differen section (0:23) with a decending bass line, which changes key 2 chords at a time. (Bb/D-Cm7-G/B-Am-E7/G#, then E7#9). So the bass moves D-C-B-A-G#. The waltzy melody changes accidentals to imply the chord changes. Then a fast run in G Dorian followed by a jazzy hit chord, D7#5#9. That pulls to the next section Gm, with another decending bass theme (Gm,F#+,Gm7/F,Em7b5, Dm7, Bb7/E, then resolve to A phrygian, C-Bb-A).
Then next section is for the solos, and the time changes to 4/4 (0:40). A phrygian, simple chords, but with rhythmic hits that have a pattern of decreasing the subdivdisions between the chords. Here is way to get the groove of the chord hits.(A 123456789 Bb-C 1234567 C-Bb-C 12345 Bb-A 123 A-Bb-A repeat). This is more of an indian rhythmic idea, to count down the rhythm, but Paco uses this chord section in his rumba on "Siroco", and throws it in often to his live show rumba when improvising. The solos could be based on A phrygian, but notice how Al does some cool out notes (G-G#, C-C#, etc) The end of the solo section has Dm7-C, C+ or Bb9, A(b9)(flamenco style), and repeats until the C+. The fast melody doubled up (1:28) uses partly the whole half diminshed, and the A phrygian. They rhythmic phrasing of it exactly like a falseta Paco uses in his Tangos "Solo Quiero Caminar", but with different notes of course.
After that last run and rasgueado ending, there is change back to 6/8 (1:39) and a very classical sounding waltzy melody again. Decending bass again, but this time not just chords, it is sort of polyphonic (Dm-E7/B, Am-B7/F#, Em7-F#7, end in Bm). Then strumming on Cmaj7-Gmaj7-Am7-E#9, Am, Fmaj7, then back to the top. Mclaughlin solos over all that crazy stuff up to the Aphrygian section(1:55-2:38). Then Paco solos.
The ending trade offs.(3:36) It stays in 4/4, but there is afeeling like the rhythm is up in the air. Actually, you gotta keep feeling the time or else you won't get the point of the trade offs. The lines at first are a wierd mix of Ephrygian and A phrygian, but then end up being a variant of E phrygian dominant. EFG#ABD, same as the mode used in "JOY" by Shakti. Notice the 6th of the scale is omitted (C note). The long shakti run using this scale is at (3:46). The final is perhaps a big birds eye fermatta (no time, they watch for a cue, but man they are tight.) Dm chord held with rasgueado until it resolves on E(b9). The FINAL run is another shakti run from "India". He uses the tritone sub to imply chord and key change. Bb lydian domiant is the scale. (mode 4 of F melodic minor, BbCDEFGAb), and he resolves it to A. And plays A(b9) as the final chord.
So there it is the way I am hearing it. The really hardest part soloing wise is what Mclaughlin does over the whole form in the beginning of ths song (6/8). But if you get his DVD you can clearly see how he uses modes to handle those changes. Hope this clears some things for you.
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
Wow Richard! I think I'll stick to theoretical physics for now , Thank you for the lesson though. I'll print this out and come back to it in 5 years.
That john Mc video sounds like a good resource. Same with Paul Gilbert's videos. I couldn't believe that I came across them a month or so ago in my music store. I might get one just to entertain myself.
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
RICARDO, thank you so much !!!!! I can't believe, how you managed to find all those great transcriptions, that was what I have been looking for for years now. Now I can start - with your help and your analysis of the tune - and understand what they are doing, this really will take me to the next step I think. I really have try to understand all the rhythm feeling, the modulations etc. And thanks for the Aspan-Video at youtube, by the way are you the one who posted the Mediterranean Sundance Friday Night in San Francisco Video (marRicardo) ???
Once again, thanks a lot, this will help me definitely !!!
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ex)
quote:
And thanks for the Aspan-Video at youtube, by the way are you the one who posted the Mediterranean Sundance Friday Night in San Francisco Video (marRicardo) ???
You are quite welcome, my pleasure. And San Fran, yep that was me. Good luck amigo.
Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Ricardo)
Well Ricardo, you have turned this into something most refreshing. I shall treasure this post. I would admire someone who could pull off these pieces, merely as a cover. But that is the easy bit. It takes a lot more to write it and explain it and of course, even more to compose it. So, I have to take my hat off to you. I thought someone in the forum would surely have the passion for this master album - but then of course, it strays too far from flamenco for some to even like it or respond. Even though that is the way flamenco was born.
Thank you Ricardo.
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Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: How to compose in the style of P... (in reply to Steve Wright)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Steve Wright
Well Ricardo, you have turned this into something most refreshing. I shall treasure this post. I would admire someone who could pull off these pieces, merely as a cover. But that is the easy bit. It takes a lot more to write it and explain it and of course, even more to compose it. So, I have to take my hat off to you. I thought someone in the forum would surely have the passion for this master album - but then of course, it strays too far from flamenco for some to even like it or respond. Even though that is the way flamenco was born.
Printable Version
, Thank you for the lesson though. I'll print this out and come back to it in 5 years. 
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