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Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
Flamenco music theory?
Hey all, figured there's no better place than the foro to figure out what's going on with flamenco music theory, since there isn't too much online! I just finished a basic music theory course and it's interesting to see how things relate to flamenco. Here's one big question I've got: in a given key (say A phrygian), what are the chord progressions one would use? There's the Andaluz cadence I've seen (iv-III-II-I, I think), and what else? In chorale studies there were lots of falling/rising fifths allowed, and the occasional falling 3rd/rising 2nd, or pretty much anything from I/i! But what's generally done in flamenco?
And then where do we get the particular chords from? In major/minor I know what quality (major/minor) each chord is going to have, but what then in Phrygian? And then of course flamenco has 1,000,001 ways of fretting every chord, to make things more difficult...
So I'm hoping we can get a comprehensive thread here for theory issues relating to flamenco - anyone has a question here, post away, and people who know better can answer them (starting with mine!! )
Half of what I know for sure just ain't so----The Phrygian always resolves to a I major in the Andalusian canon; therefore it is not strictly Phrygian. In E major Phyrigian G is natural, therefore the g# in an E chord isn't Phrygian.
Likewise, in the same progression of "am- G- F- E," we often sharp the C for the IV chord to yield "A-G-F-E"
One of my favorite topics, but it can get pretty complex. First of all understand MODAL music vs TONAL music. Tonal music is all you really have studied, and using chords and stuff only works there because of TUNING systems. Modal music uses a drone and you tune the scale to it, where as tonal music uses 12 tone chromatic equal tempermant. Chords and key changes are made possible by 5th relations (tonic to dominant). E7-A, A7-D, D7-G,G7-C etc etc. Modal music does not every do that, you stick to the drone/scale/tonic. So there are NO functioning chords.
Flamenco music a modal tonal hybrid in the cases of siguiriyas, Solea, etc, and Fandangos is important to see that hybrid at work. That means, the singing is modal based, and works fine with a drone, but the guitar tries to impose harmonies that normally don't work. So you have a new hybrid and struggle. (Alegrias or Farruca, thing in normal major or minor keys don't apply since they follow the rules of normal tonality).
So the point is, if want to make E phrygian tonic, you should not ever play G7-C because you kill the modality and make everything sound "tonal", so E was really the III chord in C major, or V in A minor. But that IS in fact what happens in flamenco, and the challenge for the GUITARIST ONLY is to make everything sound like it stays and centers on E as tonic, despite the relative keys that are visited. It is real hard for the western ear to hear that as tonic. Eastern minded folks pick up on it easier.
Ideally you learn traditionally and pick up on the best ways to make it all sound like E is home, or phrygian is tonic, despite the close relation to A minor that key and mode provide, but there is ONE music theory trick that helps.
In more advanced theory you learn about "Augmented 6th" chords. These are misspellling of the bVI chord in minor keys, but with the quality of a dominant 7th. So in A minor, you have the F7-E7 then Aminor. VI7-V7-i. OK? Well the thing about it is you can respell the F7 chord, for the sake of part writing or choral singing really, and read the chord D#-F-A-C. So a weird broken rule in theory always a smooth melody line (D# pulls to E and tonicizes the E chord.).
The key to using this device in Flamenco is the rhythm, the phrasing, you have to resolve the F7-E, so there is no where to go, no need to get to A minor. That way you have a tonic-dominant relation F7-E. II7-I. The II7 is similar to tritone sub for B7.
So in flamenco you can think of phrygian "mode" as an actual key with funtioning harmony. Weird, but sound. Also, you can use the tonic-dominant relations to modulate PARALLEL. That means E phrygian can move to E major, or E minor keys. Also, the E prhygian in flamenco borrows from natural phrygian (EFGABCD) and phrygian dominant (EFG#ABCD). I call the hybrid "spanish phrygian" (EFGG#ABCD). THE CHORDS ALL ARE BUILT FROM THAT SCALE. The D# can be thought of as an accidental to the spanish phrygian key of E, like G# would be to the key of A minor. Not in the key signature, but necassary for the tonic-dominant resolution. (NOTE: this type of harmony does not work for any of the other modes you may be familiar with. It is a special quality of only the prhygian mode. You can't use tonic-dom. for dorian or lydian modes say...) You don't always HAVE to use D# to resolve, but it does legitamize E phrygian as a tonal "key" so to speak.
Fandangos: Nice hybrid that uses both relative key change and sometimes parallel. Typical form is in E phrygian, you modulate to C major using G7. You move through the copla in C all the time, V-I, I-IV, V-I, I-V, V-I,....now the whole point of fandango after that pretty part is to go back to the darker modal key of E, so the next IV chord FUNCTIONS as II7 like we talked about before, and pulls to tonic E. There are western minded folks who have problems with that, it sounds like IV-III, and it just stays on III until the next copla, OR that it moved to A minor. But that is wrong, and important to make the distinction when you get into flamenco. It is a RELATIVE key change.
So hope that makes some sense. It is real important to learn first the traditional material to understand the how and why things resolve, and train the ear to hear both modally AND tonally. Rhythm is always underestimated for making these things "feel" like they need to resolve.
ORIGINAL: Ricardo One of my favorite topics, but it can get pretty complex.....
I was right with up to here...and I love the OK? half way through! You guys obviously recover from xmas day quicker than me. I think my brain melted in paragraph seven
Hi Kevin and merry christmas. I am always fascinated by the way that classic 'tonal' songs are in fact broken down Andalucian cadences in disguise. Have a close look at 'All the things you are' and 'I will survive'. What distinguishes them from more tin pan alley style standards is the point the structure is weighted towards a sense of conclusion on the iii chord (which is really the phrygian root ).
There are so many schools of harmony that what seems most important to me now is that one looks at a song or piece from lots of different theoretical perspectives to make sure that we don't get bogged down in preconceptions that can limit our understanding. The theory which is most practical as an aid for actual memorisation, playing, improvisation and which also leaves us with ideas for composition is the one which should be chosen on a piece by piece basis.
Romerito try and check out Jorge Cardosa's 24 South American Pieces if you can for examples of how to spell the Minor blues sections of the Alegrias which you posted. My aplogies that I cannot digitise or do much at the moment as my computer is back at the manufacturers for repair.
One more question while we're busy discussing theory What are the differences (and why) between a bulería (or any other form that uses both, I s'pose) in A phrygian and A minor? I learned one starting in phrygian, built on the Andalucian cadence Dm-C-Bb-A (the C usually being a C7), but then when it transitions into A minor it uses a pattern based on A7 (playing around with the highest note on the E string), to a Dm, to a G6/G7 (with an F on the D string), to a C7, and then goes into the progression iv-i-V7-i (Dm-Am-E7-Am), which does what the Andalucian cadence did in the A phrygian bulerías. And then the bridge is Am-E7 (i-V7), instead of the A-Bb (I-II) typical in A phrygian.
So, what's the deal? Why are the progressions different in A minor than in A phrygian, could they be the same, and why do we use that particular transition progression (I7-iv-VII7-III7) to switch from Phrygian to Minor?
One more question while we're busy discussing theory What are the differences (and why) between a bulería (or any other form that uses both, I s'pose) in A phrygian and A minor? I learned one starting in phrygian, built on the Andalucian cadence Dm-C-Bb-A (the C usually being a C7), but then when it transitions into A minor it uses a pattern based on A7 (playing around with the highest note on the E string), to a Dm, to a G6/G7 (with an F on the D string), to a C7, and then goes into the progression iv-i-V7-i (Dm-Am-E7-Am), which does what the Andalucian cadence did in the A phrygian bulerías. And then the bridge is Am-E7 (i-V7), instead of the A-Bb (I-II) typical in A phrygian.
So, what's the deal? Why are the progressions different in A minor than in A phrygian, could they be the same, and why do we use that particular transition progression (I7-iv-VII7-III7) to switch from Phrygian to Minor?
You ask "why" is there a progression, well, there just is! That is how Paco composed it, it does not have to be that way. Honestly, to switch keys, there need not be a progression at all. You can at one moment hit A major, then the next A minor, at least in Flamenco there is no need for a transition. The voice does this a lot and the guitar needs to follow. The simplest way to call in a new progression is just play the V7 chord of what ever key you are headed for. Like you have A-Bb chords happening, then you play E7, which is NOT in the key of A phrygian, then you have a smoother resolution to A minor if you want. The same for A major (another key bulerias can modulate to). And vice versa, if you are in A minor and want to switch to A phrygian, all you need is to hit a Bb chord. (Since II in prhygian is the functioning V7 substitute).
To answer your question why are there different chords in Aphyrigian vs A minor, well, that is the whole point of having a different key. The chords of A phrygian are built on the A phrygian scale, which is the same scale as D MINOR, but starting from the A note. (ABbC orC#DEFG) The chords of A minor are built from the A minor scale. (ABCDEFG or G#). Hope that makes sense?
For guitarists, the difference is that A "Phrygian" would mean por medio (A/Bb playing position) and A minor would be similar to por arriba (E/F).
So in Ramparts' example, it'd be like going from por medio to por arriba, but you'd be playing A min/E7 instead of E/F.
Major: A, E7, D... Could be bulerías, cabales, cantiñas, tangos... Minor: A min, E7, D minor... Could be bulerías, tangos, farruca... "Phrygian:" A, Bb, C7, F... Could be bulerías, soleá, siguiriya, tangos...
Thanks Ricardo! Guess it is a Paco thing then :) But hey, give me some credit, I know why chords are different in phrygian and minor! I was wondering about the progressions. Thanks for the help, Norman.
Thats as you would construct mathematical formulas to explain why the banana has a bow and in which angle it grows. And when it as a slightly different colour,.. why it grows a little different. In the end, this knowledge is unusefull...
Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco music theory? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
Thats as you would construct mathematical formulas to explain why the banana has a bow and in which angle it grows. And when it as a slightly different colour,.. why it grows a little different. In the end, this knowledge is unusefull...
Well, not really. Music theory is not the same as the physics of musical sound. Knowledge of music theory is a tool just like experience and technique, metronome, CD or video etc...it all depends in the end how wisely you apply the tools you have.
Knowledge of music theory is a tool just like experience and technique, metronome, CD or video etc...it all depends in the end how wisely you apply the tools you have.
Exactly, Just like Jazz players, learning theory and how to apply it is part of learning the music. Many "old school" players learned theory and applications by trial and error, from other players, etc. (not in a school). They may not have all the "correct" names to chords, progressions, scales, etc., but for sure they knew how to play and apply what they learned. Sometimes theory and the study of it can be a bit abstract, but one needs to also apply it. I played different music for years and learned my theory and applications here and there from other players, reading, listening, etc. It's great to learn the scale modes and the chords and notes that apply to it. A whole world opens up.
Well, not really. Music theory is not the same as the physics of musical sound. Knowledge of music theory is a tool just like experience and technique, metronome, CD or video etc...it all depends in the end how wisely you apply the tools you have.
Ricardo
Ok accepted. I just read over the pdf and thought that would be especial "flamenco-harmony-theory". If its general theory, Im with you and think its usefull to know. But I would prefer other books about this, than this summary of chuck.
Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco music theory? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
quote:
Well, not really. Music theory is not the same as the physics of musical sound. Knowledge of music theory is a tool just like experience and technique, metronome, CD or video etc...it all depends in the end how wisely you apply the tools you have.
Ricardo
Ok accepted. I just read over the pdf and thought that would be especial "flamenco-harmony-theory". If its general theory, Im with you and think its usefull to know. But I would prefer other books about this, than this summary of chuck.
Ok. And also you are right especially for flamenco but anymusic really, it need not be studied AT ALL to be a true master. Even some jazz masters can't read music... the "theory" is all intuitive. For flamenco, it is the majority.
But about music theory being a tool, in a case like this, you won't be able to come close to doing what this guy is doing if you don't understand chord and scale theory. Just using the "ear" won't make it:
But that might not be what you WANT to achieve, but one can see how tools of theory might be applied.
I've always found it more natural (descriptive after the event) to think as a por medio piece as having a "home" key of A, and a "mode" of D melodic minor. If you know your D melodic minor scale it goes D E F G A B C# D C Bb A G F E D
Note the C# and the C natural. It's all there. It fits
I've always found it more natural (descriptive after the event) to think as a por medio piece as having a "home" key of A, and a "mode" of D melodic minor. If you know your D melodic minor scale it goes D E F G A B C# D C Bb A G F E D
Note the C# and the C natural. It's all there. It fits
For melodic minor you refer to it's usage in Classical music (up with raised 6th and down natural), which sometimes applies but not always. In flamenco a scale can go up or down, no rules there. Melodic minor as a scale is just raised 6th and 7th, and that is not really the spanish phrygian sound. What you are really implying there is that the "mode" is based on D minor the key and you mix the d harmonic minor, with natural minor and melodic minor. To me the melodic is not used so much as the B natural is a "cambio" calling in the E chord and things like that. Beyond that all the notes of the chromatic scale can be used at times.
I understand what you mean totally, and true D minor is related, but the idea of "A is home" is the whole point to distinguishing A phrygian as a mode, from it's relative minor "D minor". A bulerias in D minor is not the same thing as one in A phrygian, but they share notes. Hope that makes sense.
One of my favorite topics, but it can get pretty complex. First of all understand MODAL music vs TONAL music. Tonal music is all you really have studied, and using chords and stuff only works there because of TUNING systems. Modal music uses a drone and you tune the scale to it, where as tonal music uses 12 tone chromatic equal tempermant. Chords and key changes are made possible by 5th relations (tonic to dominant). E7-A, A7-D, D7-G,G7-C etc etc. Modal music does not every do that, you stick to the drone/scale/tonic. So there are NO functioning chords.
Flamenco music a modal tonal hybrid in the cases of siguiriyas, Solea, etc, and Fandangos is important to see that hybrid at work. That means, the singing is modal based, and works fine with a drone, but the guitar tries to impose harmonies that normally don't work. So you have a new hybrid and struggle. (Alegrias or Farruca, thing in normal major or minor keys don't apply since they follow the rules of normal tonality).
Hi Ricardo. Could you recommend any books/pdfs/whatever about the fundamentals of flamenco music theory (modes etc). I studied Western music theory 20 years ago and would like to study some of this for sheer fun (I know ... it's not necessary ...):
Lola Fernandez's book looks like a total waste of time according to the reviews.
One of my favorite topics, but it can get pretty complex. First of all understand MODAL music vs TONAL music. Tonal music is all you really have studied, and using chords and stuff only works there because of TUNING systems. Modal music uses a drone and you tune the scale to it, where as tonal music uses 12 tone chromatic equal tempermant. Chords and key changes are made possible by 5th relations (tonic to dominant). E7-A, A7-D, D7-G,G7-C etc etc. Modal music does not every do that, you stick to the drone/scale/tonic. So there are NO functioning chords.
Flamenco music a modal tonal hybrid in the cases of siguiriyas, Solea, etc, and Fandangos is important to see that hybrid at work. That means, the singing is modal based, and works fine with a drone, but the guitar tries to impose harmonies that normally don't work. So you have a new hybrid and struggle. (Alegrias or Farruca, thing in normal major or minor keys don't apply since they follow the rules of normal tonality).
Hi Ricardo. Could you recommend any books/pdfs/whatever about the fundamentals of flamenco music theory (modes etc). I studied Western music theory 20 years ago and would like to study some of this for sheer fun (I know ... it's not necessary ...):
Lola Fernandez's book looks like a total waste of time according to the reviews.
Sorry I hate to say I recommend none. For flamenco you need to get the rhythm down number one. Don't worry about theory so much as it is just about chord relationships when it comes to flamenco. THat discipline is learned frankly and matter of fact via CANTE ACCOMPANIMENT. In terms of simply understanding how the instrument is laid out interms of scales and chords and keys, look no further than a complete understanding of the circle of 5ths.
Application of the that knowledge comes from the basic traditional flamenco guitar discipline. THere are no short cuts or nice books to circumvent playing for dancer or singer after having some solid base lessons with a maestro for compas technique and falsetas.
Modal music uses a drone and you tune the scale to it, where as tonal music uses 12 tone chromatic equal tempermant. Chords and key changes are made possible by 5th relations (tonic to dominant). E7-A, A7-D, D7-G,G7-C etc etc. Modal music does not every do that, you stick to the drone/scale/tonic. So there are NO functioning chords.
This seems a bit confused to me. What defines the modes is the tone-semitone relation between the degrees of the scale — nothing to do with drones.
Modal music goes back at least to the Greeks, and was the norm through most of Western musical history. Listen to Thomas Tallis — no drones there!
Many folk musics that traditionally used drone harmony now use chords — Irish music being a prime example.
“Tonal” music means merely that there is a tonic — a “home” note. Dowland’s music is tonal, but it didn’t use equal temperament.
quote:
For melodic minor you refer to it's usage in Classical music (up with raised 6th and down natural), which sometimes applies but not always. In flamenco a scale can go up or down, no rules there.
It can in classical, too. The scales are a convenient fiction.
Bert “A.L.” Lloyd reports a funny comment by a perplexed classical musician (from memory — it’s in Folk Song in England, which I don’t have here):
“But how can these peasants be singing modal music, when our best musicians have barely heard of it?”
Says more about the best musicians than the peasants…
This seems a bit confused to me. What defines the modes is the tone-semitone relation between the degrees of the scale — nothing to do with drones.
That is a special case Paul. Lots of musical traditions are concerned with the unequal distribution of the pythagorean comma and the microtonal modes derived from various inversions of these acoustic scales.
Here is a nice discussion of the more simple scales which we call modes in western jazz and classical theory.
Modal music uses a drone and you tune the scale to it, where as tonal music uses 12 tone chromatic equal tempermant. Chords and key changes are made possible by 5th relations (tonic to dominant). E7-A, A7-D, D7-G,G7-C etc etc. Modal music does not every do that, you stick to the drone/scale/tonic. So there are NO functioning chords.
This seems a bit confused to me. What defines the modes is the tone-semitone relation between the degrees of the scale — nothing to do with drones.
Modal music goes back at least to the Greeks, and was the norm through most of Western musical history. Listen to Thomas Tallis — no drones there!
Many folk musics that traditionally used drone harmony now use chords — Irish music being a prime example.
“Tonal” music means merely that there is a tonic — a “home” note. Dowland’s music is tonal, but it didn’t use equal temperament.
quote:
For melodic minor you refer to it's usage in Classical music (up with raised 6th and down natural), which sometimes applies but not always. In flamenco a scale can go up or down, no rules there.
It can in classical, too. The scales are a convenient fiction.
Bert “A.L.” Lloyd reports a funny comment by a perplexed classical musician (from memory — it’s in Folk Song in England, which I don’t have here):
“But how can these peasants be singing modal music, when our best musicians have barely heard of it?”
Says more about the best musicians than the peasants…
Well, I am NOT confused, but it would take a long time to explain in detail and address all your points. The key point is TUNING SYSTEMS used in different types of music.
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