Flamenco's ancestors

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LaVaquera

Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now

Flamenco's ancestors

We know from DNA testing that the Roma Gypsies of Andalus have matches from Northern India.

As a Muslim, our religious community is very ethnically diverse, with people bringing their cultures and music. I get to hear many different sounds. I go to parties where music from Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other South Asian music and people are. It sounds like the ancestry of Flamenco. So does the music of Egypt. I also hear it even in the more austere traditions of the conservative branches of Muslims, who say all music is forbidden, and have amazing Quran recitations to make up for it.

http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Gypsy_Migrations/ I found a blog from DNA Consultants. It shows a map of gypsy migrations. While the Roma branch of Gypsies when to Persia and Europe, the Domari Gypsies came to Egypt in 1300, and I can hear it in the music of Cairo, and Alexandria. As to who influenced whom, that is unclear, but it sounds like it was both being influenced by the other.

http://www.shira.net/music/store-arabicclassic.htm What drew me to Flamenco was the singing style. It sound like it has South Asianancestry, but it also sounds like Arabic ancestry. I love Egyptian singers, and listened to them before I became familiar with sounds of Flamenco. I hear similarities. Listen to the sound clips from this link and see if you agree. Listen to artists Abdel Halim Hafez, "Gana el Hawa".

(I know, I know, I keep reading that gypsies ancestry is not from Egypt, but the sounds are similar!) We do know there are over one million Gypsies in Egypt, called Halebi in Arabic, and many mainstream Egyptians are prejudice against them. I have seen them in Giza, near the pyramids, with perfume shops and camel rides. They are often confused with Bedouins.

What is your favorite puzzle piece to Flamenco Ancestry?

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Love, Liberty and Happiness to you all,
LaVaquera

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 13:44:35

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

Check out Tony Gatlif's beautiful film Latch Drom

It says everything, with music.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 14:08:56

changue

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

My favourite puzzle piece is how the mullet came to drive out all other hairstyles, certainly amongst flamencos. The comb-over that was once the mark of guitar virtuosity (see Diego del Gastor and various Habichuelas) is a thing of the past. Even Juan Luis Postigo has taken extreme measures to achieve mulletdom. I have often wondered if there is some evolutionary advantage, perhaps by protecting the back of the neck from the extremes of weather ahi abajo. I'd be interested to learn if there is any evidence of the mullet in ancient Egypt or, say, Helmand province in Afghanistan.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 14:11:46

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaVaquera

I also hear it even in the more austere traditions of the conservative branches of Muslims, who say all music is forbidden, and have amazing Quran recitations to make up for it.

What you hear is how they put twists of international popular music in there lately to spice up traditionally monotonous singsong.

They incorporate melodic sequences of musical pieces that are unlike oriental patterns and should not have been heard of before their invention by Bob Dylan, Simon & Garfunkel, Pink Floyd and others from the pop genre.

It helps them getting celebrated for performing `so beautifully´.
For those who don´t know: Once they got a name, muezzins tour the Arabic pensula hopping from mosque to mosque and earn fees like pop stars.
You can get rich with that.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 14:40:55

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to Ruphus)

Personally, knowing gypsies from the balkans, Id say that to associate any culture with the gypsies is absurd, for me it is 100% their music. Sure they take influences from their surroundings but that is the gypsy way, they learn to survive. Also considering the size of this earth and universe, ownership for me is a very right wing ideology when it comes to music. Generally people debating land, nationality, ethnic background/race, religion is like two flies fighting over an elephant.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 15:18:50

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1892
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

if you really want a favorite piece of puzzle, i love the fact that flamenco is very similarly structured to indian classical music, it's a tradition, and a musical (artistical) language which makes it possible for any flamencos to interact musically whenever they want - and it'll sound different every time...also, it's also really worth something only when that special bit of magic happens...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 21:32:11

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

I've never been totally convinced by this. I hear a sharp segue between the two styles but of course, this is not evidence either way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 21:36:20

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

quote:

What is your favorite puzzle piece to Flamenco Ancestry?

English Morris dancing is supposed to be derived from "Moorish Dancing" (the name "morris" being a corruption of "moorish"), arriving in England around the times of the reconquista in Spain, when the contact provided by the shifting frontiers allowed Moorish culture to pass into the rest of Europe. (see "The Ornament of the World" by María Rosa Menocal if you're interested in this)

a fascinating bypath, but ulitmately a red herring, distracting from the present reality of flamenco....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 22:13:47

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1892
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to Escribano)

i mean the structure, the unorthodox rhythms, how it's not a music to be written down (of course that has changed in the past decades in flamenco), how it's almost a necessity to interact with teachers (gurus) and others in the genre...also how it's a music with forms to respect yet there's so much room to improvise within...
of course, my father is a sitar player, so having seen this from close all my life helps in my comparison...(and me becoming a flamenco guitarist helps him appreciate me more after my initial refusals to play music :D)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 8 2013 22:27:14

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

We can't say that it's all made by the gypsies, there is alot of influence from local andalucians and muslims(andalucians and mid eastern). Some say that there is also jewish influences. What I really like about flamenco that it is a mix of cultures and I'm not buying it that it's completely created/invented by gypsies of andalucia even when they are the best performers and do/did it more than others.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 9:31:24

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1892
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to tele)

obviously...when asked, i always say flamenco belongs to the people of andalucia...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 11:04:05

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

obviously...when asked, i always say flamenco belongs to the people of andalucia...

of course but when we look for the ancestors, northern india is not the only place to seek the roots. Flamenco has roots all over the globe

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 20:28:34

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1892
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to tele)

that's right...i was asked what my favorite part was about the ancestry, so i answered that question

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 20:50:25

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

well I was more referring to this thread in general that it seems to concentrate on the gypsies only

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 21:01:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

My favorite puzzle piece in flamenco ancestry is the guitar

I know that's not a very puro statement to make but I'm a guitar player and that's what brought me to it. Love cante and baile, pero que te puedo decir? Soy tocaor........

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 9 2013 23:40:24

LaVaquera

Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

My favorite puzzle piece in flamenco ancestry is the guitar I know that's not a very puro statement to make but I'm a guitar player and that's what brought me to it. Love cante and baile, pero que te puedo decir? Soy tocaor........

That's a great comment when you consider how much genius went into the tuning.

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Love, Liberty and Happiness to you all,
LaVaquera

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2013 22:07:43

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

where do you draw the line? Did they just appear in northern india? We are all brothers and sisters :P

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 10 2013 23:23:05

bule_b

Posts: 65
Joined: Mar. 11 2009

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

Aretium - perhaps english is not your first language??

Did you even read the title of this thread "Flamencos ANCESTORS" ..... if you've ever travelled to Rajasthan (which you obviously haven't) then the origins of flamenco cante are VERY obvious.

Heck the minera is not much changed at all from what one hears in blacksmiths at Rajasthan to this very day.

And no the Roma they did not "appear" in Rajasthan, they are FROM Rajasthan originally, as proven by DNA.

p.s. I draw the line ... when idiots like you show up on threads and contribute nothing but your own ignorance. Where did you "appear" from??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 13:46:48

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to bule_b)

Bule_b I think you misunderstood me (why are you getting angry?), it is obvious that the Roma originated from northern India, what I was implying is, how did they get there, if you go back far enough where were they then? It was just a general/joke question, sorry if I offended you.
These sorts of discussions are interesting but more often than not, the reasons behind them can be political or discriminatory.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 14:12:13

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to bule_b)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bule_b
p.s. I draw the line ... when idiots like you show up on threads and contribute nothing but your own ignorance. Where did you "appear" from??

I draw the line where people put their own frustrations and problems onto people who write normal and appropriate comments in threads like this one. Aretium made a pretty good point.

Besides there only part of the influence on cante and melodies comes from rajasthan. There is alot of muslim(probably moorish origins) influence in the singing and more so original andalucian flavours.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 15:20:15

LaVaquera

Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to bule_b)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bule_b

Aretium - perhaps english is not your first language??

p.s. I draw the line ... when idiots like you show up on threads and contribute nothing but your own ignorance. Where did you "appear" from??

This is so horribly abusive. I am so sorry Aretium that you were abused this way by Bule b. This is so wrong. I perfectly understood your posting, and think you made a good contribution. The spirit of Flamenco is enjoying the diversity of cultures that blend into one. This demands an environment of tolerance.

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Love, Liberty and Happiness to you all,
LaVaquera

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 17:17:13

LaVaquera

Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to changue)

quote:

ORIGINAL: changue

My favourite puzzle piece is how the mullet came to drive out all other hairstyles, certainly amongst flamencos.

Oh, look on the images in the tombs. Some of the wigs look almost like a mullet. But the mullet is fading away, after being popular in the 70s to the 90s. It is being replaced with the all-one-length of the handsome men such as Tomatito, Juaquin cortez, and Canelita. It is as if hair is becoming important to the image.

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Love, Liberty and Happiness to you all,
LaVaquera

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 17:33:57

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaVaquera
It is as if hair is becoming important to the image.

I think that every famous artist has more or less his/her own signature look and hair is a big part of one's look. So just my two cents is that I think it has always been important part of the image. Alot like the guitar one plays or the face they make while playing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2013 18:23:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco's ancestors (in reply to LaVaquera)

most interesting thing is the remate, the sudden stop of the compas everyone feels at once. It is not the down beat. I don't see this in music of india, africa, arabia, asia, or europe or the americas. Where it comes from is quite interesting to me. So many focus on the meter or cycle or the hemiola, but that is not what is important.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2013 16:07:57