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Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde es Caramelo"
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Guest)
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I cannot disagree with your points, Shroomy, and command the showing of civil dialogue that you initiated on a subject which could easily get out of hand. My affectionate remarks about Todd are due to knowing him through the GSI forum first and then this, for nearly a decade now, and to his consistent characteristic "shooting from the hip". I admire him immensely as a true musician and a sincere gentleman who never criticized anyone gratuitously or unfairly, only rather "harshly". While I agree that it only benefits the Foro s health and growth to have a more polite tone in our posts, I would miss Todd's unvarnished remarks, if he ever became more subdued. Each one of us, somehow historical members on this blog, has overtime defined his own role and personality, and makes this place more interesting. Imagine if Tom B stopped posting about his Reyes plans or fine tuning technique ... As our most distinguished member would close it... "Cheers"
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gj Michelob
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Date Jun. 12 2013 15:45:48
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
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When it comes to the question ear playing vs transcriptions i feel very blessed because i can enjoy the best of both worlds. Being the son of a (at first classical) guitar teacher my ears were tuned into processing guitar sounds even before i was born and at a very young age i was able to sing every classical guitar piece that was played (or better said studied) in my presence (quite a repertoire actually including the Bach Suites). When i was old enough to attend one of his concerts i was extremely surprised to hear him play complete pieces WITHOUT REPETITIONS...... at home he always studied fragments of pieces and fragments of fragments... and when he stopped halfway a Bach suite his 4 year old son continued singing from beneath the table :-). At the age of 12 (playing the guitar for 3 years) i could easily outplay adult players when it came to finding the right chords to songs. While the adults were still surging the corresponding page in the songbook (only to discover it was published in a different key then the one chosen by the singers) i was already playing on automatic pilot since the first couple of notes had told me this (to me unknown) song was a typical C-major song with a capo at 4. Around that period of time i stopped taking guitar lessons from my father and started to ear play all the records of Paco Peña. At 18 i consulted my first music book (well, the first one since i stopped taking lessons) covering a couple of songs of Harry Sacksioni. Not able to read classical notation i first had to translate it into tabs, using a handy translating-chart my father made me. When i tried to play the first results i soon had inflicting ideas so i consulted my father again..... Does this translation match what is written here? Yes it is.....but half of the notes are missing ??????:-( ??????....well, yes, publications like these are often simplified to make the music accessible to more people. Accessible my ass, i obviously lost interest in written music on the spot and decided (once again) to trust my ears rather then that bunch of idiots. Soon i ear played all the records of Flairck, playing both the guitar, 12-string guitar, bouzouki, citar, banjo and violin parts. At 22 i auditioned for Paco Peña's university school of flamenco guitar, playing Sabicas farruca, Vicentes childhood tarantas and 2 pieces on 12 string guitar. As it turned out i had impeccable ears (i was the only one out of a 100 with zero mistakes in re-playing whatever they throwed at me) and since they valued my musicality as well they allowed me to enter. At the time i could not read notes, i had no idea of the name of the notes (i could only name the open strings) and i couldn't name a single chord by name. I didn't even now how to name a 3/4 or 4/4 beat. At music university school i learned musical theory and how to write and read notes and rhythm (i secretly used my fathers hand written Bach partitures to practice reading since they were pretty easy to read and on top i knew that music by heart since i was 4 so i would immediately spot a mistake when i misplayed a note). I also had to learn again how to play the guitar (basically from scratch), trying to get rid of numerous bad habits, replacing them with better moves and fingerings. My repertoire came partly from things i ear-eye-played myself and partly from things that were ear-eye-played and annotated by my father, who collaborated with Paco and happened to be the main teacher for (flamenco) technique, musical history and didactics. On top he was the one who single handedly produced over 1000 partitures of flamenco used by the institute. Those partitures are the very best flamenco partitures in existence, revealing in full detail the notes, rhythm, compas treatment, left and right hand finger management and the correct interpretation. I'm pretty sure that for most people those particular partitures would be a better source of information than ear-eye-playing it themself. They showed me different and better ways of looking at things and different and better ways of using my hands and brain. Don't forget they pair 30 years experience of Paco (1 of the most refined flamenco players i know) with 30 years experience in transcription and didactics of my father (1 of the most knowledgeable and all round musicians i know with over 20.000 hours of stage-experience and even more hours on the clock as a teacher of classical/flamenco guitar). If they offer you there combined knowledge on a piece of paper it's worth to give it a serious look. Memorizing a complete piece of Paco Peña from paper would took me about 3 hours. Ear playing it myself would cost me much much more time and only give me the right notes (but not necessarily the correct finger management and/or compas treatment)....1 student (way more experienced in flamenco then i was) was not able to read music and once needed 6 mounts to memorize Paco's solea por bulerias by monkey see, monkey do... i memorized the same piece in 3 hours, leaving me 12 lessons to work on interpretation with the masters (in stead of wasting valuable time with re-finding the notes week after week). Also i use written music (tabs) to annotate and analyze the music i ear play. Only after i put it on paper i noticed Vicentes famous (price winning) soleares intro was missing 1 beat... 4 times in a row. I played that record hundreds of times without noticing it and Vicente himself overlooked it for over 10 years as well. So as i see it, partitures can be very handy (and even a real eye opener when they are done by someone way more experienced then you are or by yourself for on paper analyses). Unfortunately many partitures that came to me via other sources were extremely difficult to read, pretty useless and sometimes even dead wrong (especially in finger management and rhythm). If i want to work out a falseta which is not included in my fathers collection, i don't look elsewhere but ear-play it myself. And with my present level of understanding (and my extremely poor reading skills) i prefer to ear-play basically all music myself (including the ones written out by my father).... it's part of the learning process, sharps the mind and in a way is more rewarding. But like i said, a huge part of my present level of understanding (like compas treatment, finger management, interpretation, phrasing etc.) comes straight from my fathers partitures....and his wise face to face lessons and corrections :-). I can't answer the question about how accurate the Vicente piece is since don't play it myself. The link also offered a score of Manolo Sanlucars Solea por Bulerias. I checked the falseta i ear-played myself 20 years ago and it seemed to be a perfect match (as far as the notes are concerned because there was indeed no rhythm notation).
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Date Jun. 14 2013 18:47:39
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rodrigovalt
Posts: 296
Joined: May 1 2011
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
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quote:
I am so pleased to make your acquaintance, Rodrigo, I have always enjoyed your channel [which came up whenever I searched for Vicente Amigo's videos on YouTube]. I particularly enjoyed your rendition of "Callejon de Luna" [embedded below]. I remember reading one of your exchanges there, complaining that you did not have a proper guitar, is that still the case? At any rate, it is a pleasure to see you on this Foro, you are a fine and dedicated musician, and have all of my admiration. Wow, thanks a lot for your kind words Giacomo... there was a period in which i wanted to learn only music from Vicente, I remember particularly Callejon De la Luna which is one of my favorites. I sold that guitar already it was an Alhambra "luthier flamenco"... it had a decent sound but the distance between the strings in the bridge was uneven, it took me a while to figure that out, it didn't help me a lot with my picado as it was difficult with that issue. Now I own a blanca from Salvador Castillo, negra Hnos Sanchis Lopez, and a Conde form Gravina :).. Thanks again! and i will upload some new stuff soon, I'm waiting for a footage that was taken a few days ago and will definitely upload that to youtube THANKS GUITARBUDDHA! in case you guys are interested I uploaded a new video in Facebook : www.facebook.com/rodrigovaltflamenco Hope you guys like it
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Rodrigo
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Date Jun. 24 2013 18:16:26
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n85ae
Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Guest)
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It would take me an eternity to learn a piece strictly by ear, if I have the Tab and the recording, then I can figure out the notes, and listen to how it should sound. I then CAN learn a piece of music this way, and quickly enough. I have neither time, nor inclination, nor lifespan to learn by ear. Sorry, it doesn't work for me. I think a lot of people are like me in this respect. Learning to play something by ear on the guitar, is like learning to speak my wife's Canotonese language - Not happening (in this lifetime). Jeff quote:
Sure Todd, but some of us haven't grown up playing music and analyzing it. Also, some of us don't have the time to spend transcribing. I tried it for some Argentine Tango pieces and due to the complex chords I felt it took too long to figure out especially when the technique itself requires time. For this reason and because they were no reliable transcriptions (from people that get it wrong), I actually commissioned the work to be transcribed since I really wanted to play the piece. I gotta say he did an excellent job although not 100% correct. I felt a moment of pride when I corrected one particular measure which to you may seem like nothing but to me represents a giant step forward. Of course, keep in mind that I work 50+ hours/week and am married so not much extra time is allotted for transcribing and messing around with the guitar trying to nail down the chords. I wish I were like you and would have been introduced to music earlier. I feel like I have a good ear, but completely untrained. I also don't have much music theory background. All this would be possible if I didn't spend most of my time mastering my engineering job (which requires a lot of "extra curricular" pro bono learning). You know, I am trying not to kill people with my designs... I mean, I really appreciate your two cents and believe them to be very valuable since you are such an accomplished and outstanding musician. But you don't always look at things from other perspectives. I guess you feel pity for me since you think it's "sad" that I can't transcribe my own music. Well, I think it's sad too... I wish it weren't that way and that I would have another lifetime to follow your advice, but life is short and tempus fugit.
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Date Jun. 24 2013 18:58:39
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