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most important thing is to listen and listen and listen.

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ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

My greatest flaw as a musician, and it is no small problem, is that I never played with anyone else, not even that funny ticking metro[g]nome whom I am now learning to accept as part of my practice.

But... i just cannot count beats, and must rely on my instinct to keep track of them. Track I often lose.

Any exercise, trick or routine anyone can recommend for this old dog to 'learn' and develop this most rudimentary form of practicing?

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Two points. First singing and counting. It is simply a coordination of what comes out of your mouth and the right hand, just exactly like singing and playing (except you need not be hitting actual tuned notes when counting). It is a skill that will certainly help to know, but not necessarily improve your overall playing or understanding of rhythm in general. I learned as a teen singing pop tunes and strumming that i would mess up unless it worked it out what syllable timing corresponded to my right hand strumming. You practice until it is natural. In a past topic I discussed the importance of singing being music and lyrics being something else (meaning or the words). I found myself able to sing songs and play at the same time but had no real clue what the hell the song was about. Anyway, back on topic, you have to simply coordinate what you play to what you SAY. And actually counting turns out to be rhythmically more simple (on the beat with usually 1 to at most 3 syllables depending on the language you use) than singing most songs with lyrics. In english "e-lev-en" is the longest number you have to cram in time. IN spanish you only need at most ftwo syllable sounds if you cram 7 like "sie-te". So un-o dos -tres- qua-tro cin-co, etc...is two 8ths, two quartes, 4 eighths of rhythm etc.

Those sounds you can coordinate with your playing if you want, and pretty easy as tapping the foot once you get the hang of it. THe country bumkin tune above would be harder to sing and play as far as just strumming compas.

But the real issue , my second point, is not about counting I think if you talk about improvisation and meter. The issue is PHRASING. To compose or improvise it is the same concept. You are STEALING some other rhythm you know EXACTLY and is in compas of whatever you want. Then you simply ADD NEW NOTES to that exact rhythm. Bam you are done and no issues of meter. For example happy birthday is in 3/4, just play the rhythm on one note. Now make up some notes in A phrygian played with pulgar, using same rhythm. Alternate thumb notes with top E string open, and bam you are doing something like fandangos por medio no counting needed.

The end result may be more or less flamenco by your specific and personal note choice. Over time you adjust your concept of what best notes to use and on which part of the phrase as a whole, and next you look at better rhythms to steal from, and on it goes.

ricardo

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GJ,
Can you count 2/4 and play? (two beats per measure) If you can keep a steady beat, always accenting the 1 and playing a variety of musical figures over that, then you could progress to 3/4 and then 4/4. After that, you might try 6/8. At that point, you might give the 12 beat compas a try.

I doubt many have done it this way, but do jugglers learn by starting with 5 balls in the air?

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For me its impossible almost to think numbers and play.

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ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

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For me its impossible almost to think numbers and play.

Well that is exactly my problem. I am sure we can train ourselves to do the strangest and seemingly impossible exercises, such as counting and playing at the same time. I suppose the question that many have more or less directly posed will remain, IS IT NECESSARY or WORTH the effort?

Perhaps it ain't. I am working with a metronome and polishing my Scales and Picado. This ForoFlamenco does something to me... I actually listen to the the word of advice!

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THE QUESTION is actually how many flamenco guitarists count while they play.

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How many aspiring flamenco guitarists play with poor rhythm/tempo and compas?

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its not really about the ability to count out loud. its really more about knowing exactly where you are in the compas all the time. counting out loud isn't necessary, but most aspiring players who are just trying guess end up repeating rhythmic mistakes so many times that the mistake becomes hard to unlearn. ...

Repetition is keying in learning music. Repetition of rhythmically incorrect material will render the result of consistently played rhythmic mistakes. ...

Play less material more accurately in regards to rhythm and you will have great success in whatever music you wish to play.

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ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

wrong notes played in rhythm sound better than the right notes played out of rhythm. right notes played in rhythm sounds best of all.

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Other way to know the "number" is of course tapping the accents(of solea for example) with the foot which takes some practice, I still need alot of practice for that

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ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

Ultimately, I just had never really wanted to play in Compas, but only whatever the melodies I felt required. Now that I am determined to 'learn', however, I really need to make the Metronome an integral part of my practice, a friend, really, not an hostile source of insecurity... we are now flirting, sometimes by teasing each other, but there is some hope for a long lasting love affair.

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Dear rogeliocan, thank you for your concern. I will try –against my natural verbose proclivity - to offer a brief explanation. In a nutshell:

I have always loved and continue to, Country Music, but I have always played nylon strings [let's just put it that way], was it classical or fingerpicking bluegrass, country or celtic music.

Then a few years ago, I discovered flamenco and it changed my life.
However, I see flamenco as three discrete wonders:

1. Flamenco per se [i.e.: the traditional and rigorously structured style];
2. Flamenco as a peculiar technique to play nylon strings on a sound-specific instrument; and
3. A wonderful and comprehensive vehicle to learn music theory and guitar in general.

What turned me off about flamenco were the people, not the music, on this Foro. I just ended up associating flamenco with endless and disturbingly raucous disputes about what the 'thing' really is [and keep in mind that I engage in 'dispute' of assorted intensity the whole day long, so music must represent some sort of relaxing break or it would defeat the purpose]. Above all, I had devoted myself to the Foro quite enthusiastically and took some disappointments more to heart than I would have otherwise, because of such zeal.

And so yes, I sold them all, my sweet flamenco guitars [save for the Vaquez Rubio blanca, to which I now added my Navarro Student with Pegs -I had sold and now reacquired from LaFalseta and literally cannot put down... heavenly little guitar].

I have always enjoyed writing melodies, and Country music is all about melodies. However yet, I really like to play them [fingerpicking-style] on a flamenco guitar. I know some here can’t wait for an opportunity to humiliate me about them, but there is worse in life. So …

… Now that I have found some sort of balance, I actually want to seriously study flamenco. I am determined to structure my summer schedule to carve out enough time take lessons from Ricardo and practice sufficiently to make them worth each others' time.

…But I have this unrealistic dream [pleonastic adjective, but to reinforce, it is a fantasy] of recording and putting out there a few of my oddly played country/celtic tunes. Why not, after all thus far in life I have accomplished all that people expected of me –and I am not complaining; at 50, I suppose, silly as age will undoubtedly make it sound, I heed the call, chirping clearly … a different tune.