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RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!!
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Losing count in... beats and pie... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob My greatest flaw as a musician, and it is no small problem, is that I never played with anyone else, not even that funny ticking metro[g]nome whom I am now learning to accept as part of my practice. But... i just cannot count beats, and must rely on my instinct to keep track of them. Track I often lose. Any exercise, trick or routine anyone can recommend for this old dog to 'learn' and develop this most rudimentary form of practicing? Two points. First singing and counting. It is simply a coordination of what comes out of your mouth and the right hand, just exactly like singing and playing (except you need not be hitting actual tuned notes when counting). It is a skill that will certainly help to know, but not necessarily improve your overall playing or understanding of rhythm in general. I learned as a teen singing pop tunes and strumming that i would mess up unless it worked it out what syllable timing corresponded to my right hand strumming. You practice until it is natural. In a past topic I discussed the importance of singing being music and lyrics being something else (meaning or the words). I found myself able to sing songs and play at the same time but had no real clue what the hell the song was about. Anyway, back on topic, you have to simply coordinate what you play to what you SAY. And actually counting turns out to be rhythmically more simple (on the beat with usually 1 to at most 3 syllables depending on the language you use) than singing most songs with lyrics. In english "e-lev-en" is the longest number you have to cram in time. IN spanish you only need at most ftwo syllable sounds if you cram 7 like "sie-te". So un-o dos -tres- qua-tro cin-co, etc...is two 8ths, two quartes, 4 eighths of rhythm etc. Those sounds you can coordinate with your playing if you want, and pretty easy as tapping the foot once you get the hang of it. THe country bumkin tune above would be harder to sing and play as far as just strumming compas. But the real issue , my second point, is not about counting I think if you talk about improvisation and meter. The issue is PHRASING. To compose or improvise it is the same concept. You are STEALING some other rhythm you know EXACTLY and is in compas of whatever you want. Then you simply ADD NEW NOTES to that exact rhythm. Bam you are done and no issues of meter. For example happy birthday is in 3/4, just play the rhythm on one note. Now make up some notes in A phrygian played with pulgar, using same rhythm. Alternate thumb notes with top E string open, and bam you are doing something like fandangos por medio no counting needed. The end result may be more or less flamenco by your specific and personal note choice. Over time you adjust your concept of what best notes to use and on which part of the phrase as a whole, and next you look at better rhythms to steal from, and on it goes. ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date May 8 2013 18:56:56
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Losing count in... beats and pie... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Two points. First singing and counting. It is simply a coordination of what comes out of your mouth and the right hand, just exactly like singing and playing (except you need not be hitting actual tuned notes when counting). It is a skill that will certainly help to know, but not necessarily improve your overall playing or understanding of rhythm in general. I learned as a teen singing pop tunes and strumming that i would mess up unless it worked it out what syllable timing corresponded to my right hand strumming. You practice until it is natural. In a past topic I discussed the importance of singing being music and lyrics being something else (meaning or the words). I found myself able to sing songs and play at the same time but had no real clue what the hell the song was about. Anyway, back on topic, you have to simply coordinate what you play to what you SAY. And actually counting turns out to be rhythmically more simple (on the beat with usually 1 to at most 3 syllables depending on the language you use) than singing most songs with lyrics. In english "e-lev-en" is the longest number you have to cram in time. IN spanish you only need at most ftwo syllable sounds if you cram 7 like "sie-te". So un-o dos -tres- qua-tro cin-co, etc...is two 8ths, two quartes, 4 eighths of rhythm etc. Those sounds you can coordinate with your playing if you want, and pretty easy as tapping the foot once you get the hang of it. THe country bumkin tune above would be harder to sing and play as far as just strumming compas. But the real issue , my second point, is not about counting I think if you talk about improvisation and meter. The issue is PHRASING. To compose or improvise it is the same concept. You are STEALING some other rhythm you know EXACTLY and is in compas of whatever you want. Then you simply ADD NEW NOTES to that exact rhythm. Bam you are done and no issues of meter. For example happy birthday is in 3/4, just play the rhythm on one note. Now make up some notes in A phrygian played with pulgar, using same rhythm. Alternate thumb notes with top E string open, and bam you are doing something like fandangos por medio no counting needed. The end result may be more or less flamenco by your specific and personal note choice. Over time you adjust your concept of what best notes to use and on which part of the phrase as a whole, and next you look at better rhythms to steal from, and on it goes. ricardo That eloquently shows why I am so adamant about this 'dude' being my teacher. And as the overworked phrase has it... "no further questions, your Honor"
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gj Michelob
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Date May 8 2013 19:53:57
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Losing count in... beats and pie... (in reply to tele)
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quote:
Other way to know the "number" is of course tapping the accents(of solea for example) with the foot which takes some practice, I still need alot of practice for that Thank you, Tele. I must say that, since posting about my doubts, and on the wave of many a valuable advice and encouragement, such as yours, I started working more with a metronome, tapping my foot [sometimes in different directions, such as left/left/right] and counting while imagining different colors in my mind, to mark accents. Ultimately, I just had never really wanted to play in Compas, but only whatever the melodies I felt required. Now that I am determined to 'learn', however, I really need to make the Metronome an integral part of my practice, a friend, really, not an hostile source of insecurity... we are now flirting, sometimes by teasing each other, but there is some hope for a long lasting love affair.
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gj Michelob
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Date May 12 2013 2:54:24
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tele
Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
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RE: Losing count in... beats and pie... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob Ultimately, I just had never really wanted to play in Compas, but only whatever the melodies I felt required. Now that I am determined to 'learn', however, I really need to make the Metronome an integral part of my practice, a friend, really, not an hostile source of insecurity... we are now flirting, sometimes by teasing each other, but there is some hope for a long lasting love affair. There's no flamenco without the rhythm... Great tool is also the free flamenco master program. The compas is one of the most difficult things in flamenco and Im sure it will take many years for me to get all the palos into my spine. But I can imagine it to be like a beginner learning to play drums or guitar, there is always some progress.
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Date May 12 2013 10:35:03
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Losing count in... beats and pie... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
Dear rogeliocan, thank you for your concern. I will try –against my natural verbose proclivity - to offer a brief explanation. In a nutshell: I have always loved and continue to, Country Music, but I have always played nylon strings [let's just put it that way], was it classical or fingerpicking bluegrass, country or celtic music. Then a few years ago, I discovered flamenco and it changed my life. However, I see flamenco as three discrete wonders: 1. Flamenco per se [i.e.: the traditional and rigorously structured style]; 2. Flamenco as a peculiar technique to play nylon strings on a sound-specific instrument; and 3. A wonderful and comprehensive vehicle to learn music theory and guitar in general. What turned me off about flamenco were the people, not the music, on this Foro. I just ended up associating flamenco with endless and disturbingly raucous disputes about what the 'thing' really is [and keep in mind that I engage in 'dispute' of assorted intensity the whole day long, so music must represent some sort of relaxing break or it would defeat the purpose]. Above all, I had devoted myself to the Foro quite enthusiastically and took some disappointments more to heart than I would have otherwise, because of such zeal. And so yes, I sold them all, my sweet flamenco guitars [save for the Vaquez Rubio blanca, to which I now added my Navarro Student with Pegs -I had sold and now reacquired from LaFalseta and literally cannot put down... heavenly little guitar]. I have always enjoyed writing melodies, and Country music is all about melodies. However yet, I really like to play them [fingerpicking-style] on a flamenco guitar. I know some here can’t wait for an opportunity to humiliate me about them, but there is worse in life. So … … Now that I have found some sort of balance, I actually want to seriously study flamenco. I am determined to structure my summer schedule to carve out enough time take lessons from Ricardo and practice sufficiently to make them worth each others' time. …But I have this unrealistic dream [pleonastic adjective, but to reinforce, it is a fantasy] of recording and putting out there a few of my oddly played country/celtic tunes. Why not, after all thus far in life I have accomplished all that people expected of me –and I am not complaining; at 50, I suppose, silly as age will undoubtedly make it sound, I heed the call, chirping clearly … a different tune. Hi Bursche... thank you for welcoming me back. I replied to a smilar question, earlier on this thread; you can read my answer above. To which, I must also add... ... I really missed Flamenco, this Foro and its community.... i.e.: I missed y'all PS.: Let's see if we organize not just a challenge but a challenging project.
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gj Michelob
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Date May 12 2013 19:18:25
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