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RE: Segovia and flamenco
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Ricardo
Posts: 14897
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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many guitar fans, especially classical or flamenco, view the guitar trio project as muscally dead cheap speed theatrics etc, a far cry from great composition. Only speed and technique there, "mcdonalds music", "guitar olympics" etc. Well Al sat down and gave the music to the amazing technician Barrueco and interepreted a duet. Manuel admited the rhythmic difficulties of the piece. Not technical like finger speed, but RHTYHMIC difficulty. You dont' have to be a jazzer or flamenco or classical aficionado to hear clearly that he was not so comfy keeping the groove of the basic lead melody he did it but it was very forced and stiff. There was no improvisation, just the main composed parts. Now he sits in PDL's chair, but keep in mind this music is supposed to be not so sophisticated (so it gets critiqued) and only a demo of fast scales fusion...so what was the problem? I can imagine, despite not being able to read a score, any top young flamenco player to handle those parts in a natural unstiff way. Likewise any jazz player or any type of musician that can play in tight ensembles. I applaud the efforts of Barueco to even explore such a project, but hopefully some perspective can be derived there on what technique and interpretation really mean to overall playing level. In flamenco we hear that moraito and his music is simple or easier than others, yet only a handful faithfully interpret his stuff convincingly, and they happen to be quite accomplished individuals themselves. Here is a fun thought, master class with BACH himself with heifitz, casals, and segovia in the class. Would they be nervous? How will they feel if Bach said they all needed to play SLOWER to get the rhythm because nobody could dance to THAT!!!
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 20 2013 17:50:28
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Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Sure...that's why you stirred it up AGAIN. Wasn't me. quote:
But not to repeat but I disagree with most of your points. He paved a road for Solo concert guitar, even for flamencos. Perhaps his arrogance helped that happen. It is not fair to simply guess that it would have been paved without him...you have to acknowledge that it very well might NOT have happened. Paving a road makes all the rest possible but someone has to pave it. Today dirt roads still exist. Not saying you are wrong, just that it's not a 100% certainty concert solo guitar would have ever been so popular and inspired. Even today we have aficionados that are not fans of solo guitar as long as cante exists. Montoya had a recording and concert career in Paris and that led to part of his popularity. Your assumption about Segovia paving the way for flamencos is totally unfounded. Nino Ricardo also recorded fairly early in Paris. The French seemed to take a liking to flamenco relatively early. And flamencos did not need Segovia to do it. quote:
Fingers I talked much about, not insecurity but rather he could have been annoyed at students not getting the point of his fingerings that he was quite serious about. Let em miss the point and do it their own way, and what is there left to learn really? THere are surely special cases as I tried to point out, but if you want to generalize about it sure, he seems unreasonable. A great teacher takes everything into account; is your scale length proper, are your hands small (very important for fingerings as you have pointed out in other threads), if ones hands are to small what is the best way to accomodate the melody and harmony (can one drop octaves for example, or exclude some notes that will facilitate less of a stretch). The person in question was my teacher and I certainly new how he felt (at least on one occasion) about the debacle. quote:
I think it would have been A LOT harder or impossible otherwise. I don't. It might have occurred later but knowledge and practices spread. People (Americans, or more properly US citizens) tend to think that the combustible engine and airplane were invented in America. They weren't and the technology spread. The Germans and Japanese (WWII plug here) both innovated fighter planes and automobiles. They would have done so with or without Henry Ford and the Wright brothers. In fact, many American innovations are made by immigrants. Barrios existed without Segovia, Williams as well. PDL too.
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Date Mar. 20 2013 19:05:35
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
Segovia himself surely also knew all that, but instead of trying to put them at ease, and allow them to relax so they could perform at their best and true level, he would sit there stone-faced and unsmiling...By contrast, I also attended master classes as a guest of Pepe Romero. What a difference! Pepe would mingle with the students, smiling, kidding around, and put them entirely at ease. Andres Segovia was born in 1893. Pepe Romero was born in 1944. I would suggest that each was a product of his time. In European universities, conservatories, and under a maestro in Segovia's time, there was a very clear distinction made between the professor (or maestro) and the student. Professors and masters were the equivalent of gods, and the student's job was to absorb their wisdom. It was not to question and have a dialogue such as we are used to in the US, and which has occurred in Europe as well, at least since 1968 and after. I suspect Segovia was very much of this old European tradition of the master and the student, and much of his personality and interaction (or lack thereof) with students must be understood within that framework. Pepe Romero, on the other hand, came of age as things were changing, certainly in the US but in Europe as well. More openness, questioning, a far greater rapport between professors and masters and their students. Romero was not burdened with the old tradition that enveloped Segovia. I think that old European tradition might explain Segovia's personality and behavior more than anything else. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 20 2013 19:22:58
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana I want to interrupt this fabulously on topic thread to speak about Somali Warlords and other crap I have no control over..... ~but first I have a question for RNJ about AS: Richard, I heard you once say that Segovia changed his sound after he first heard himself recorded. I was wondering if you would be so kind as to elaborate on that idea? I'm interested in a total reevaluation of Segovia for myself I think that may be an entry point. dozo.. Properly phrased, I should have said he changed his way of playing. The tone is recognizably Segovia's on the early recordings. I think the phonograph affected many musicians. But I hasten to say this is just speculation on my part. I never talked to anyone who said it affected them, nor have I seen such a statement in print. There has been a lot of printed commentary from classical musicians that the recording business has raised expectations for technique to extremely high levels. Many of the current crop of younger players of all instruments are amazing virtuosi. But as evidence of the phonograph's influence, I adduce, for instance the difference between the playing of Cortot, Thibaud and Casals on their first recordings, and a few years later. The pianist Cortot was notorious for playing on the cracks, but after the first recordings he cleaned up a good deal. Still far from perfectly accurate, but not as cavalier as on the earliest recordings I have heard. This takes nothing away from the delicious swing and stomp of their early Haydn "Hungarian" Trio. The fount of wisdom on the Beethoven sonatas is the set by Schnabel. But each succeeding generation of pianists has advanced in big strides in technical virtuosity I think Segovia is more metrically precise after his 1929-33 recordings, despite his romantically elastic rubato and technique driven rhythmic distortions. Playing with a metronome a piece you have had under your fingers for years can be very informative. Listening to a recording can be, too. But don't take my word for it. Listen to Segovia's first recordings, then this very well remastered later collection http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=53403 and let us know what you think. If public libraries still stock classical music, this is a set the Oakland, Berkeley or San Francisco libraries ought to have. RNJ
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Date Mar. 21 2013 0:20:04
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Ricardo
Posts: 14897
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus There is one point that has been overlooked and that is the difference between playing a transcription of a major work as faithfully as possible and playing falsetas of ones own invention. One assumes that a guitarist would not attempt a chord he could not play without difficulty. Mention was made of Moraito playing easy pieces. Does a flamenco player ever play without a capo? PDL does on the Aranjuez, handily. Segovia could have played the chord in a different position but I assume he didn't want to change the sonority. Well, even segovia would admit a performer must play "within the circle of one's own technique"...meaning you don't want to challenge yourself on stage as much as at home. The implication that ones own composition is "easier" to play than someone else's is true generally, but depends on the specifics again. About capo, it's a double edge sword. Classical players like to use two cop outs regarding the speed of flamenco players generally...1. action, 2. capo. I played Montoya's guitar and it was not super low. The action will be specific to the player, for sure the average flamenco will prefer low action for the sound the strings make when strumming. High action sounds like mud. The more virtuosic flamencos prefer a bit more stiffness and higher action so they can play and project melodies stronger. Low action guitars great for strumming fret out and buzz so much you can't make a clear sound. The capo is double edged on one hand the capo will permit a slightly lower action but mainly easier WIDE STRETCHES. But in the upper positions, it makes passages EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Again we need specifics, but it should be understood flamenco players don't use capo ever for sake of stretches as if playing a wide spread falseta, what do to with the lower voiced singer? No, the reason is more for the sound and tone the guitar brings in a higher or lower position. And the answer do they EVER play without the answer is absolutely YES quite often they have no choice and others they choose to do it. Now Segovia got lots of critic for his adaption of say Bach (vs say the Albeniz) to the guitar. Like I pointed out, he had "andalusian hand jive" regarding fingering to do essentially what flamencos do when they compose....try to make fluid connections of phrases like a little dance of the hand. Sometimes yes he had to change the composer's music to do it. The main problem I and other flamencos have is why he refused to acknowledge both the technical skill of his contemporary flamencos, and belittle their compositional ability too. While even montoya of course had traditional things in his repertoire and style, the fact he played his OWN music on stage should tell any classical fan Montoya was MORE LIKE Paganini (composer), and Segovia more like Heifitz (interpretor ONLY). quote:
It its also conjecture that there its some causal connection between Segovia's visit to Paris and Montoya's tour. In intro to Faucher's book, the summary of montoya's visit and subsequent recordings made in paris was spear headed by the parents of Rodrigo de Zayas, family friends that helped montoya travel to france. It seems Zaya's dad wanted Montoya to gain respect by recording solos on new 12 inch discs as had already done the classical greats. No mention of segovia is made but it was discussed that Montoyas music was "living" music...for sure there below the surface the implications are clear.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 21 2013 17:01:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
From what I remember Carlos rode the guitar craze while it lasted on the college circuit which paid well but was not considered an outstanding example of the genre. There are many critics of Carlos Montoya, and his playing has been critiqued here on the Foro on several occasions. I would only say that, however one considers Carlos Montoya's interpretation of flamenco, he did much more than just play the college circuit. I saw one of his performances in Phoenix, Arizona in 1960, and it was sold out. I also attended a performance by him at the Kennedy Center's Concert Hall in Washington, DC in 1982, and it, too, was sold out. He cast the net out to a wide audience and, in turn, got a huge response. Those were the days when a flamenco guitar performance consisted of just the solo flamenco guitarist. I would like to see more of that today. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 21 2013 19:53:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
Was he really able to capture your attention for what at least and hour and a half. I don't think I could listen to a solo flamenco guitarist for that long. Yes, as part of a dance troupe with a full panoply of gypsy performance. Fantastic! But a solo flamenco recital? But there were touring troupes in the states in the 50s and 60s such as El Greco who surprisingly was an Italian who grew up in Brooklyn! Small world! It has been reported that Rose Augustine had invited members of the troupe to her home and they performed to the accompaniment of Segovia as he was living in her home at the time. I could easily listen to an hour-and-a-half flamenco guitar recital then, and I could do it now. Back then, Carlos Montoya, Sabicas, Manitas de Plata and others just performed solo. I remember seeing Jose Greco's dance troupe. Paco de Lucia played guitar with Jose Greco's group as a very young man. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 21 2013 20:36:56
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