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Just been watching a youtube vid of a guy who has had his flamenco guitars fitted with carbon fibre saddles, would be interested in the views of you guys, especially as I have never heard of a luthier using them...
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
I don't know specifically about carbon fibre, but my experience with different saddle materials showed me the potential improvement on tone by changing to a "better" saddle material is way overrated. And that goes with bridge pin material as well. You really need to have crappy material (soft plastic) to really start hearing a difference. And once you get decent material (bone, Tusc, ivory, MOP, etc.), switching from one to another really doesn't change much.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
First I'll say I have no experience with carbon fiber bridge saddles.
But with that out of the way, I'll say I'm a retired engineer, and my college room mate and good friend is one of the world's leading experts on composite materials. He is responsible for the first carbon fiber control surfaces on aircraft like the Airbus, the Eurofighter and the big Boeings. He's the guy who convinced Ferrari to go to carbon fiber monocoque construction on his F1 cars, while the old man was still alive. If you have a carbon fiber tennis racket, carbon fiber skis, kevlar body armor, stuff like that, you have Tom to thank for them.
We worked together on composite and skinned honeycomb helicopter blades. Chopper blades are an interesting problem, since they transition from subsonic to supersonic flow along the length of the blade.
Saying something is made of "carbon fiber" is like saying something is "ceramic". A ceramic can be anything from simple low-fired clay pottery to high tech super hand stuff like synthetic sapphire. "Carbon fiber" is really some form of plastic reinforced with some form of carbon fiber. The plastic can be epoxy, vinyl, nylon...you name it. The carbon fiber can be simple strands of tow, like dental floss, it can be 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional weave, it can even be super strong carbon nanotubes, as in some baseball bats or golf clubs.
The acoustic properties of a "carbon fiber" bridge saddle could be dead as a doornail, or really hard and bright.
All this is a long winded way of saying, if you're interested, buy one and try it. Ask your buddies if your guitar sounds better.
Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
I have an electric bass on which I changed the saddles from metal to carbon fibre. There was a small but noticeable increase in sustain afterwards. I imagine you would see the same kind of difference going from bone to carbon fibre. For my bass, I considered it to be an improvement in the sound. I'd be more hesitant to make that change for a flamenco guitar.
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
First I'll say I have no experience with carbon fiber bridge saddles.
But with that out of the way, I'll say I'm a retired engineer, and my college room mate and good friend is one of the world's leading experts on composite materials. He is responsible for the first carbon fiber control surfaces on aircraft like the Airbus, the Eurofighter and the big Boeings. He's the guy who convinced Ferrari to go to carbon fiber monocoque construction on his F1 cars, while the old man was still alive. If you have a carbon fiber tennis racket, carbon fiber skis, kevlar body armor, stuff like that, you have Tom to thank for them.
We worked together on composite and skinned honeycomb helicopter blades. Chopper blades are an interesting problem, since they transition from subsonic to supersonic flow along the length of the blade.
Saying something is made of "carbon fiber" is like saying something is "ceramic". A ceramic can be anything from simple low-fired clay pottery to high tech super hand stuff like synthetic sapphire. "Carbon fiber" is really some form of plastic reinforced with some form of carbon fiber. The plastic can be epoxy, vinyl, nylon...you name it. The carbon fiber can be simple strands of tow, like dental floss, it can be 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional weave, it can even be super strong carbon nanotubes, as in some baseball bats or golf clubs.
The acoustic properties of a "carbon fiber" bridge saddle could be dead as a doornail, or really hard and bright.
All this is a long winded way of saying, if you're interested, buy one and try it. Ask your buddies if your guitar sounds better.
Love this and love the conclusion.... just like food, yeah it looks great, it has this and that in it... but do you like the taste because that is ultimately what counts.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
Speaking of carbon fibre, Manuel Adalid (chief luthier at Esteve) is supposed to have experimented with making guitars with carbon fibre braces. He also has made guitars with double (sandwich) tops. I own a traditional Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca with wood bracing and a single top, and it has a very nice sound. Don't think I would want a guitar with carbon fibre braces or a double top. In any case, has anyone played a Manuel Adalid with carbon fibre braces? With a double top? What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound? I'm all for experimentation, but I wonder what the advantage would be in these cases.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
The use of "carbon fiber" for bridge saddles and top braces is hardy anything new. The late Paulino Bernabe was using some form of carbon fiber for saddles back in the late 1980s and there are a number of current makers, many of them building classical guitars in the Smallman/Aussie style, who use carbon fiber laminations in their top braces. It's also used with some frequency as neck reinforcement material.
There's a great big wonderful world out there beyond flamenco, fellas. Get your heads out of....um....the sand.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
having worked with composites (primarily kevlar and s-glass) in the whitewater kayak field (slalom and squirt boats), i would imagine some problems would be dermal irritation (osha recommends using protection when handling) when sanding the saddle. sanding that mixture could be nasty--especially to the lungs if one does not use a mask.
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound?
In both cases, the point is to make a top that is lighter, thus vibrating more easily and producing a faster responding guitar with greater volume. I don't know much about carbon fibre braces, but I do know that double-tops are quite hype these days in the classical world (mostly with the new crowd -- students). That said, experienced players are not all that enthusiastic about it. It seems double-tops lacks the dynamics of a traditional top. In other words, there are many ways to snap a note, which will make it sound different. With a double-top, don't bother it always seem to sound the same. (That's exaggerated, by the way. But it's to make a point...).
For flamenco guitars it might sound good, but I would worry how the thin layer of wood over the honeycomb structure will appreciate golpes...
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
Ahhh.... it's our good friend Ruben Diaz spruiking these.
A lot of BS IHMO
There is justification for using graphite nuts in tremelo equiped guitars, but Carbon fibre(preformed epoxy bound) is a different material it tends to be easily abraded. Can't see any advantage over bone
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Jeff Highland)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
A lot of BS IHMO
There is justification for using graphite nuts in tremelo equiped guitars, but Carbon fibre(preformed epoxy bound) is a different material it tends to be easily abraded. Can't see any advantage over bone
Plus black saddles and nuts a so f'ing ugly. Forgive me but I don't like black tuner buttons or black rollers either. I guess I'm old fashioned.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to jshelton5040)
the saddle need not be black as one could use gel coat in the fabrication and have a multitude of colors--say pink, metal flake, etc. ugly, yes, but do-able. gel coat is the coloring agent that allows fiberglass to have color--check out an older corvette (are they still made with fiberglass?).
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
It's a good material, and superior to a lot of bone being sold on the market. Cows that do nothing but stand around getting fat for the slaughter, do not produce quality bone; kinda like todays kids . That particular kind of CF is made under pressure, making it harder, with more graphite, and less resin in the mix. Gel coats are used to seal porous fiberglass and are not as hard as this material, but I suppose it could be made with coloured resin. Ugly? Ya it doesn't look right, but then neither does super white bleached bone; unbleached looks far better.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Alain Moisan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound?
In both cases, the point is to make a top that is lighter, thus vibrating more easily and producing a faster responding guitar with greater volume. I don't know much about carbon fibre braces, but I do know that double-tops are quite hype these days in the classical world (mostly with the new crowd -- students). That said, experienced players are not all that enthusiastic about it. It seems double-tops lacks the dynamics of a traditional top. In other words, there are many ways to snap a note, which will make it sound different. With a double-top, don't bother it always seem to sound the same. (That's exaggerated, by the way. But it's to make a point...).
For flamenco guitars it might sound good, but I would worry how the thin layer of wood over the honeycomb structure will appreciate golpes...
A few weeks ago I heard the classical player Jason Vieaux on his double top Gernot Wagner in concert. He is one of the top classical players today. It was one of the best classical sounds I have ever heard. The tonal variety and dynamics were utterly awesome. I've heard just about everyone from Segovia on his Hauser on forward. I own and play the guitar Romanillos made just before Bream's famous #501.
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
I too am fully bearded but alas am unsure if I am a male or 'specimen'. I think I prefer bone.....unbleached, although bleaching does have its place but not on these pages.
RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound?
In both cases, the point is to make a top that is lighter, thus vibrating more easily and producing a faster responding guitar with greater volume. I don't know much about carbon fibre braces, but I do know that double-tops are quite hype these days in the classical world (mostly with the new crowd -- students). That said, experienced players are not all that enthusiastic about it. It seems double-tops lacks the dynamics of a traditional top. In other words, there are many ways to snap a note, which will make it sound different. With a double-top, don't bother it always seem to sound the same. (That's exaggerated, by the way. But it's to make a point...).
For flamenco guitars it might sound good, but I would worry how the thin layer of wood over the honeycomb structure will appreciate golpes...
A few weeks ago I heard the classical player Jason Vieaux on his double top Gernot Wagner in concert. He is one of the top classical players today. It was one of the best classical sounds I have ever heard. The tonal variety and dynamics were utterly awesome. I've heard just about everyone from Segovia on his Hauser on forward. I own and play the guitar Romanillos made just before Bream's famous #501.
RNJ
Well, you have to take my comments for what they are worth. It essentially corresponds to what my customer and other guitar enthusiasts have told me. And since double tops are far from being the majority of guitars out there, (and is still a pretty new concept that is still evolving), opinions about them should not be taken as facts.
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. That particular kind of CF is made under pressure, making it harder, with more graphite, and less resin in the mix. Gel coats are used to seal porous fiberglass and are not as hard as this material, but I suppose it could be made with coloured resin. Ugly? Ya it doesn't look right, but then neither does super white bleached bone; unbleached looks far better. 
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