Increased break angle (free)

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Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

Increased break angle (free)

Well, maybe all of you already knew this but judging from guitar pics, I dont think so.

My guitar as an already very healthy break angle and on this one I decided to do the traditional one loop around the string tying method. Incidentally, I discovered that the part that goes under the string and elevates the string itself (thus reducing the angle), can be easily pulled in and you immediately see the angle increasing.

Here's a pic from the internet:

These savarez red card basses that Iam using feel really flimsy and I was just looking at the bridge and realized that the A and D where sliding a bit on the bone so I just intuitivelly pressed that loop around and the breakangle drastically changed. The strings feel tighter now.

Discard this info if you already knew it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 15:17:18

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Yeah, i am constantly pushing the loops down.

I believe most people understand more break angle is good.

This is why the 12 hole tie block is a big thing now.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 15:36:04

theblackcat

Posts: 57
Joined: Feb. 2 2010
From: Istanbul

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

These could also help:

http://rosetteguitarproducts.com/bridgebonebeads.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 15:56:25

azamuner

Posts: 44
Joined: Jan. 22 2013

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to theblackcat)

Now those look interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 16:03:34

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

On my older guitars with classical bridges, I used normal beads, the ones used to make necklaces.. worked well and didnt look ugly like those huge beads.

After I pushed the loops down, the only string that still wiggles a bit on top of the saddle is the G string but I guess thats to be expected. The basses feel much tighter now, nice workaround for these flimsy savarez basses (HT..yeah, right

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 16:04:16

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Has anyone tried "re-filling" worn string holes? With a small piece of wood and some glue I've seen someone increasing the break angle on youtube(as the holes were worn by the strings).

Occasionally I have trouble with the angle that the loop creates as when it's too steep angle it can create separation on the winding of the string. is this problematic or just cosmetic? I would suspect it can cause the string to break more easily.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 16:06:50

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Ive used toothpicks but I didnt glue them, I just inserted on top of the string inside the hole. Worked fine but you might want to use the kind of toothpicks that look waxed.

Oh, I just tuned my guitar almost a half step higher and NOW these strings feel good!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 16:16:47

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

If you use medium strings I've found daddarios the stiffest. But I prefer luthier myself

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 17:00:52

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Ive been using d'addarios and la bella 820, those are stiff enough. Even aranjuez 200 feels stiffer than this crap lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 17:28:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Probably this video.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 17:32:34

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to theblackcat)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theblackcat
These could also help:
http://rosetteguitarproducts.com/bridgebonebeads.html

Tried them and they snapped my strings - I never break strings - the edges are too sharp on these. Also the width of these things may actually be wider than the depth of the bridge itself on some guitars

I have a Ricardo Sanchis with a really poor break angle, I'm going to get it drilled for 12 holes as Todd mentions, my Anders has 12 and it makes a difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2013 19:18:19

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sean)

yeah its the one, I wonder isnt this something many people do on old guitars?

I wonder if 12 hole bridge, pulling the string back and re filling the hole like in the video are the only way of increasing action without adjusting the saddle. Has anyone re-drilled the holes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Probably this video.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2013 19:08:50

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

I wonder if 12 hole bridge, pulling the string back and re filling the hole like in the video are the only way of increasing action without adjusting the saddle

Not a luthier but that doesn't sound right, and it sounds a lot tougher then putting a new bridge on.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2013 19:33:20

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

I wonder if 12 hole bridge, pulling the string back and re filling the hole like in the video are the only way of increasing action without adjusting the saddle

Not a luthier but that doesn't sound right, and it sounds a lot tougher then putting a new bridge on.

Sorry I meant its three different methods , 12 hole, pulling and re-filling.

BTW I just used a piece of D string to fill the worn string hole as a temporary fix and it works

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2013 15:05:21

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Didnt want to create another thread just to ask this...

The saddle on my guitar was a little angled (not a tight fit), even the original one had a little gap so it wouldnt touch the front of the bridge completely.

I stuck a bit of golpeador material at the back of the saddle (not underneath) and now it has a good fit and the front of the saddle is touching the bridge on all its surface.

I would like to know if this is a common workaround for "a bit loose" saddles. In theory, I guess having a bit of golpeador material at the back of the saddle wont do any arm but thats why Iam asking.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2013 13:06:08

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Probably this video.

A 1933 in Munich made guitar. Its so tempting

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2013 14:29:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

The saddle on my guitar was a little angled (not a tight fit), even the original one had a little gap so it wouldnt touch the front of the bridge completely.

I stuck a bit of golpeador material at the back of the saddle (not underneath) and now it has a good fit and the front of the saddle is touching the bridge on all its surface.

I would like to know if this is a common workaround for "a bit loose" saddles. In theory, I guess having a bit of golpeador material at the back of the saddle wont do any arm but thats why Iam asking.

Any ideas on this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2013 15:22:52

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Thats messed, if you can actually fit a piece of golpe material in the bridge slot there is something seriously wrong with the sloppy @ss work of that maker. Will this fix get you by? Sure. Will it screw anything up? No.
A luthier can do a better job fixing this issue with a wider piece of bone, and with a little tweaking improve the intonation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2013 20:00:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

If that doesnt screw up anything, thats ok with me.

I only had 2mm bone blank so this will have to wait until I get a thicker one.

By the way, the golpeador material is not that thick. The difference is that now I have a tight fit and the saddle is completely flat pressed against the front of the bridge. The intonation is ok and I even gained about 0,2 mm of string height at the bridge

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2013 13:31:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

This afternoon I applied my traditional stringing method to this new guitar as 2 treble strings and the D strings were a bit too flat angle wise.

6 pink beads later and now I remember why I did it on other guitars. The strings are much tighter on the right hand and picado feels easier.

BTW, does anyone know of beads made from someother material besides plastic? Sometimes these ones Iam using break (not that often though).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 20:42:44

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins
This afternoon I applied my traditional stringing method to this new guitar as 2 treble strings and the D strings were a bit too flat angle wise.

6 pink beads later and now I remember why I did it on other guitars. The strings are much tighter on the right hand and picado feels easier.

BTW, does anyone know of beads made from some other material besides plastic? Sometimes these ones I am using break (not that often though).

What is your traditional stringing method? I too have a poor break angle on one of my guitars.

Pink beads on a flamenco guitar?! Sounds yuk!

IT sounds like you are using a method similar to the bridge bone beads product, ie tieing your strings behind a bead so they go straight through the bridge once.
If so, why would this have any affect on string tension? You are not altering scale length.

You can get beads in many different colours and materials. Long thread on the subject on Delcamp:
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=72654&hilit=who+bone+beads

I'm about to try some ball end strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 7:42:58

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Blondie#2)

You havent seen my guitar's color or the beads.. why judge based on nothing?

I guess the increased break angle ends up forcing the string more so it gets more tense near the bridge.. btw, isnt that the reason to increase break angle?

More angle = more tension, which might also mean more sound (depending on the guitar and how much angle you had already)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 9:26:06

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

I guess the increased break angle ends up forcing the string more so it gets more tense near the bridge.. btw, isnt that the reason to increase break angle?

Well its only forcing the string more at one point. Greater break angle = greater downward pressure on the saddle yes, but I very much doubt it will affect the tension along the length of the string to your playing position to the extent that you could actually notice it. You'd need some pretty sensitive equipment to measure any changes in overall string tension, and that would also mean using exactly the same string (not even a different one of the same brand) measured at precisely the same point on the string (given that tension increases the nearer you get to the saddle anyway).

I would say if you feel a differrence it has more to do with expectation bias.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 10:53:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Blondie#2)

Without getting into physics and the way materials "respond" on a region where they're bent, you could just test it for yourself and I assure you that you dont need any fancy equipment to test it.

Also remember that with less break angle the strings move over the saddle when plucked hard..

I guess this is pretty standard knowledge about stringed instruments, even with steel strings the break angle effect on tightness for the right hand is the same.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 11:41:00

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins
Without getting into physics and the way materials "respond" on a region where they're bent, you could just test it for yourself and I assure you that you dont need any fancy equipment to test it.

Well actually let's get into the physics, some simple physics.

No change in pitch = no change in tension

Tension is related directly to pitch, so unless you are changing the laws of physics, you are imagining things if you think greater break angle = higher string tension.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 13:04:33

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Blondie#2)

I keep on getting the same problem with my D string, the winding is separated from the knot pulling the string up and it exposes the nylon for about 1-2mm. Is this a problem and isnt it possible that it causes increased chance of broken string? Any solutions? I have tried already different knots and increasing the break angle by putting old piece of string in the bridge hole. Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 14:52:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

Well actually let's get into the physics, some simple physics.

No change in pitch = no change in tension

Tension is related directly to pitch, so unless you are changing the laws of physics, you are imagining things if you think greater break angle = higher string tension.

That would apply if no string existed past the saddle or nut. If things were as you say, why bother with angles?

Keep your theories, things are working in practice over here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 19:09:14

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I just had a bridge converted to twelve holes giving a much greater break angle. It has undoubtly made the pulsation in the right hand stiffer. The luthier who did the work said this was typical. I always felt uncomfortable going from my other stiffer guitar to this one, now they feel similar.

I don't understand the physics but do a foro search; it has been discussed here many times that several factors go into pulsation, not just the scale length and pitch.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 20:51:27

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to tele)

quote:

I keep on getting the same problem with my D string, the winding is separated from the knot pulling the string up and it exposes the nylon for about 1-2mm. Is this a problem and isnt it possible that it causes increased chance of broken string? Any solutions? I have tried already different knots and increasing the break angle by putting old piece of string in the bridge hole. Thanks

I dont know if I understood your question well but if the winding is getting cut at the saddle, maybe the saddle isnt smooth. Anyway, sometimes I have a string where that happens and it doesnt break, it just shows the "inside of the string".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 21:00:10

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Increased break angle (free) (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

quote:

I keep on getting the same problem with my D string, the winding is separated from the knot pulling the string up and it exposes the nylon for about 1-2mm. Is this a problem and isnt it possible that it causes increased chance of broken string? Any solutions? I have tried already different knots and increasing the break angle by putting old piece of string in the bridge hole. Thanks

I dont know if I understood your question well but if the winding is getting cut at the saddle, maybe the saddle isnt smooth. Anyway, sometimes I have a string where that happens and it doesnt break, it just shows the "inside of the string".

It gets the exposed nylon at the knot where it pulls the string upward, so before the saddle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2013 18:05:14