Barree, the monster

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Barree, the monster

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

Barree, the monster

2 things:

- are there barree excersizes one should know, or which you would recommend? coz thats the my weakest point atm. i know the "simple" excersize to just hold the strings down with the index or additionally with some other finger and then play...

when i do the Fmajor7 on first fret the d string sometimes comes muted or buzzing

... its rather confusing coz on 2nd fret i can do the same without much effort...

- what dou you think of short and long barree? for example:

D 5 5po3
A 3
E5

do you stretch the index until the E or A string?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2005 20:16:10

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

quote:

when i do the Fmajor7 on first fret the d string sometimes comes muted or buzzing

You must talk about F7, right. You don´t play a Fmajor7 chord at the first fret with a barré
But F7 (dominat) you do. Well it´s a large grip so sometimes you nead to wrk on it to gett some muscles. Also think about useing your arm and not only your fingers. Also it´s not all 6 strings that nead pressing down cause some fingers play notes that are not IN the barré with the index finger.

Henrik

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2005 20:25:50

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to duende)

oh yes, its F7. i kind of mixed up german and english

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende
Also it´s not all 6 strings that nead pressing down cause some fingers play notes that are not IN the barré with the index finger.
Henrik

ok, so you would say that one may also play "short" barres. i was asking because in the flamenco guitar book the example i mentioned above should be played with barre on 6 strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2005 21:01:13

sorin popovici

Posts: 427
Joined: Jan. 7 2005
From: Iasi, Romania

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

actually F with a major seventh can be hold in the 1st position(i use it )

1
1
2
2
3
1

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2005 0:53:48

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to sorin popovici)

quote:

actually F with a major seventh can be hold in the 1st position(i use it )

Yes i forgott that. But as a jazzer it´s not comon.
It more colon to hold. No A string

0
1
2
2
*
1

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2005 5:10:43

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ok, so you would say that one may also play "short" barres. i was asking because in the flamenco guitar book the example i mentioned above should be played with barre on 6 strings.

No what i meant was. First finger only press down on string 6,2 and 1 the others are held by
the other fingers. Do you have the book "pumping nylon"? it explains this very good.

hasta

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2005 5:12:39

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

my point on short barre was related to the example i had given above, here again:
D 5 5po3
A 3
E5
there is a pulloff on the index finger on d string.

the point with the F7 chord (112131) was a different topic about muscles.
but i know the gist of what you mean, duende.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2005 9:12:21

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus
- are there barree excersizes one should know, or which you would recommend? coz thats the my weakest point atm. i know the "simple" excersize to just hold the strings down with the index or additionally with some other finger

That latter one is bad idea as you get dependant on using an additional finger to support the barre, and sometimes you need all your other fingers. Also, using a supporting finger can affect the way the other fingers address the fingerboard ie at awkward angles.

For great tips on barre, see Pumping Nylon. Basically the more you can use the weight of your arms, the better. If you see the barre as simply about squeezing between your forefinger and thumb, you will always find it problematic. Henriks point about not (usually) needing to press down all the strings with the barring finger is important too.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 8:30:38

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

Pumping Nylon

Jon, does this book give examples with TAB, or is it notation?

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 12:29:22

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jim Opfer)

it´s notation.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2005 10:17:09

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

quote:

Pumping Nylon

Jon, does this book give examples with TAB, or is it notation?

Hi Jim there's a tab version in print as well as the standard notation.

Cheers

Jon

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2005 18:54:25

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

If you started with classical like me you will probably have stamina issues...as in you can hold a barre chord but just not for long enough, or not continuously.

What I did to learn Barre chords was basically to hold the chord, then lift the entire guitar by the neck, still holding the chord. You don't have to lift it over your head or like some prize catch, you can still be seated and just suspend it slightly above your lap / floor *without* the help of your other hand. If you have a lot of time and patience, practise lifting heavy stacks of books by gripping with just the thumb and index finger. When the muscles controlling these fingers tear, you will feel them become very weak but when they knit back they will be thicker and stronger each time. Just like doing weights I guess.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 8:06:26

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
If you have a lot of time and patience, practise lifting heavy stacks of books by gripping with just the thumb and index finger. When the muscles controlling these fingers tear,

Wow, I have to say that's not to be recommended! This is not good advice at all - exactly the opposite of what he should be doing. This a a recipe for bulding up lots of tension, and causing injury. Tearing muscles?? Ouch!!

Brute force/muscle bulding is not the way to a get good barres, its all about good technique, and technique is subtle. My favourite way of demonstrating the futility of the above approach is by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.

Sorry to be hard on you Ryan, but its to easy to get injured with poor practice.

BTW - classical guitar = no stamina for barres? You have to be kidding, man.

Jon

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 9:00:57

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

hmm yes.. training for the fingers is only good if you do it with technic-training on the guitar. I would never do strechig-training (for ex.) with my fingers,too..
I never trained especially to get a good barre... When I started to play for dance, I acompan. the better players. And we often played rumbas for warming up. So when you played 15min only barree chords without a timeout, you get big muscles for barree. It was often like a bodybuilder workout for hands.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 9:12:10

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.

hm i also thought about that as an excersize but is that possible? i mean i tried to play solo without the thumb and ive managed to play simple ones but a barre?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 10:48:11

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.

hm i also thought about that as an excersize but is that possible?

Yes, for straight forward barres, eg like your standard Emajor shape (giving a G here)

3
3
4
5
5
3

Try this - with your right arm weight securing the guitar, you can use a combination of left arm weight and a gentle pull back of your left arm to hold those 3 strings down no problem. Combine that kind of stuff with ensuring that the barre is on the bony edge of the finger (as opposed to the fleshy inside) and you're away.

Granted that things get tricky with barres plus long stretches, or holding a barre with the rest of the fingers moving through a picado scale (Paco is fond of doing that) but for the most part good technique can minimise the amount of 'squeeze' you need between forefinger and thumb.
Golden rule - the less tension you carry in your left hand, the better.

I really must get my video **** together.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 11:18:51

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Classical w/o stamina?! Try Cavatina for some nice 'barring torture'

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 14:37:07

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Don't get me wrong. Past a certain point guitarists of *any* genre will be able to barre chords for equally long periods of time. In my experience though, guitarists who play Jazz, Rock or Blues tend to get used to barre chords much sooner than classical guitarists. This is probably due to the fact that classical syallbus' generally begins with precision based, note - for - note exercises whereas it's contemporary counterparts launch from open chords directly into barre chords.

That aside, it is my humble opinion that if it dosen't hurt, it's not efficient practise.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 14:53:51

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
That aside, it is my humble opinion that if it dosen't hurt, it's not efficient practise.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with that, I'm afraid. The no pain-no gain philosophy has no place in learning a musical instrument and is a recipe for RSI.

"If it hurts, you are doing something wrong." Plain and simple.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 15:28:27

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I'm with Jon and I studied anatomy & physiology for 3 years - when it hurts, stop. Use exercises to warm up; build flexibility and muscle with correct exercise, not poor technique.

Poor posture is also a big one - we guitarists and computer users can suffer from serious RSI in the wrist and lower back disorders (L5-S1 joint). Laptop commuters regularly damage nerves in the cervical spine.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 16:26:25

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Good post Escribano, but Ryan, is it not logic and reasonable enough to stop when it hurts ? (are you sm?

joke :))

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 16:45:13

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Heh. Maybe if my organ teacher had met you guys she wouldn't have cracked me over the knuckles with that ruler so many times

Now I'd just like to point out that while I hold my barre chords just fine now, I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome. So I may be wrong.

But that's how I did it. *shrug*

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 6:43:58

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome.

Didn´t you say pain was good? I sufferd for 3 years of that syndrom.
I made some exsercises and now it´s gone more or less. I never feel it while playing flamenco but i can´t play electric (with a pick) for more than 30min then i start to feel it again.

Good for me huh? Flamenco guitar was the perfect cure for my hand.
Doing rasgueados actualy developed my muscels in a good way so my hand stay happy.

For me there wasn´t ANY pain what so ever. So we should take breaks and not always go on how the body reacts. I played Jazz for 3-4 hrs then was trying to learn rasgueados for 3-4 hrs
Then i was doing rasgueados on the chair the table the side of books.
So the muscles NEVER had any rest. And i never felt ANY pain and BAAAM there it was.

so dear friends. Take breaks, pain or not.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 6:56:35

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
Now I'd just like to point out that while I hold my barre chords just fine now, I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome.

And on that note, the case for the prosecution rests.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 7:59:53

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Well it is *a* way isn't it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 15:20:11

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

And on that note, the case for the prosecution rests.

Jon;

Does self incrimination apply here?

My uncle would say, “Don’t do what I do! Do what I say”! Some people cannot learn or teach from self-experience but give advice regardless. At least we know the end result of following Ryan’s instructions.

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 23:05:45

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

ay ay ay....
I can tell you that I have obsessively overpracticed technique and my fingers got a lot of pains and minor injuries because of it. Slow and steady wins this race....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2005 1:51:30

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Barree, the monster (in reply to XXX)

Well I highly disagree playing through pain. Sure, playing even though you're starting to get abit tired is fine. But definitely not pain. It's always better to progress abit slower instead of damaging your hands. In the end, it'll slow you down even more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2005 11:54:00

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[Deleted] (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2005 15:18:12