Spain trip

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Spain trip

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por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

Spain trip

Ok. I am going to save up and go to Spain for the first time next year. It will only be for two weeks at absolute max however. In order to plan the most efficient schedule I need your help.

1. what is the best way to maximise the learning in that short time? Something like Sanlucar? Or what are good courses that I could attend? More specific the better please.

2. All going well I'll also have saved up for a Conde (sorry to all the in-house luthiers here but I just need to fulfill my totally unreasonable desire). Where to go for this? I should have about $US8,000 at least hopefully.

Again more specific information the better since I will need to plan this carefully. Thank you for those who have blazed the trail for us foreigners.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 7:00:24

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

Hi por medio,

quote:

I am going to save up and go to Spain for the first time next year. It will only be for two weeks at absolute max however

I did that twice, over 20 years ago! Both times it was somewhat of a disappointment, because teaching was in larger groups, the teachers weren't really interested in non savvy foreigners, and the general pedagogic approach was "watch me, and then play". Recordings weren't always allowed, and handouts with notation or tabs were nonexistent.
The general attitude seemed to be: you've got to have flamenco in the blood, foreigners will never catch on anyway

Last year I spent a week in Sevilla and took personal lessons at the
Taller Flamenco
and was very satisfied: Very friendly people, private guitar-lessons every day, contacts to other flamencos...
Things have changed a lot in the last decades. Now one gets the impression that the pros are proud of their art, and happy to partake. The lessons were tailored exactly to my needs, and I was surprised, when my teacher (Manuel Berraquero) asked, "No video, no audio? Don't you want to record our lessons?" and quickly wrote down the tabs to all my exercises...

They'll also help with affordable accommodation if needed.

As to the Conde, I'm afraid I can't really help.

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 8:19:34

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

I've heard good things about the taller flamenco in Sevilla, plus Sevilla is just a fun city. As for the Conde you can always just go to the Conde store in Madrid, take a train and make a day of it.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 14:37:46

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Spain trip (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

As for the Conde you can always just go to the Conde store in Madrid, take a train and make a day of it.

It might be just a rumor but i once heart conde let you try out the guitars in a "marble cellar" offering conditions that make every guitar sound like a 15k instrument. They probably safe the best guitars for the big names and i have know idea what the attitude towards foreigners is when it comes to selecting/offering the best guitars in stock. I've never been in Madrid myself (bought my second hand Conde in the Netherlands) but it seems there are various Conde shops over there.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=199281&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#200103

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 15:38:34

Morante

Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Spain trip (in reply to Erik van Goch)

This is no rumour

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 15:50:02

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

Take a guitar case with you. This way you might avoid paying two times for the guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 16:06:17

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

I can't imagine going to Spain for the first time and spending the entire time in one place. Having a good guitar course somewhere would be great, but there is just so much to see. Through work, I have spent a total of 8 months in Granada in 2010 and 2012, and I have still never seen Huelva, or Sanlucar, or Jerez, or even the real scenes in a number of places that I have been like Ronda or Sevilla or Cordoba or Almerilla.
Go, be a tourist, see as much as you can.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 19:47:11

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

My advice is Gerardo's thing in Sanlucar is very efficient in terms of short time you have. Got word gerardo will present a short concert of antonio Rey, Jesus del Rosario, and dani de moron on the first night. That will be free and perhaps worth the entire trip right there, but there will be so much more to gain from the overall experience. And its all just in one week leaving you time to goof off all you want trying to find something "better" than what you get there. Not saying you wont, just saying it will be the most bang for buck on short visit.

Conde....I recommend to get a used instrument. You can find them well with in your price range, even vintage Sobrinos de Esteso, many people consider superior to modern conde. (I say depends on specifics and what your tastes are). Ebay is not always trustworthy, I recommend contact Dan Zeff as he is honest and fair price wise and not always trying to push prices like say Guitar Salon and other used car dealers ( ooops I mean guitar dealers

).

The old romantic notion of going to spain to pick up a guitar was sort of killed by the whole euro thing long ago. Anyway I am sure you have heard it all about luthier guitars gonna give you more bang for the buck these days regarding NEW guitars, that is true of course.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 20:54:53

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

Hey!

I know the Taller Flamenco in Sevilla, I lived right across from it for 3 months about two years ago... they are indeed very nice and friendly people. You'll be able to taylor make something that suits your needs with them (mix of individual guitar lessons, group palmas lessons, accompanying behind one of their guitarist in the baile classes). You can write to them... the person to talk to there (because she speaks really good English, unless you speak Spanish) is Corinna.

If you're set on Sevilla, I also recommend you approach a guitarist you like and ask them for private lessons. I have some very good experiences doing that. The most important thing is of course to choose them wisely, going to penas help. (especially Torre Macarena, Pies de Plomo and Nino de Alfalfa). I would personally recommend Socrates, Ishmael and Idan.

You could also get some lessons from Tino Van Der Sman but they tend to be expensive, so that would really depend on your budget... but Tino is absolutely amazing!

I would also recommend you check Torombo's palmas classes out... they are amazing, and the guy is quite a character!

As for your Conde, Ricardo is right, go for a second hand, but do try it before buying though. Dan Zeff is great to deal with and his advise is always good... if you want to check out some shops in Spain, I suggest you visit Postigo in Sevilla (his house is where he keeps his nice guitars, not his shop!), and Paquete in Madrid. You can get his contact details at Casa Patas, he's a really cool toquaor who has a really nice collection of guitars for sale. It's not a shop per se though, so you'll have to get in touch with him and make an appointment to try the guitars... he's got some seriously cool guitars (especially Estesos and Condes), and he's decent enough not to drive the price up when he sees foreigners!

Saludos!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 21:10:29

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: por medio

2. All going well I'll also have saved up for a Conde (sorry to all the in-house luthiers here but I just need to fulfill my totally unreasonable desire). Where to go for this? I should have about $US8,000 at least hopefully.

Forget about the current Conde guitars. They have just the name but not the sound that had made a Conde to be desired among the flamencos. In last years issue of the magazine Akustik Gitarre a Conde estudio has been reviewed, at price of 4200 €! I never would spend such a price for an estudio model. Between the lines it was clear that the ratio of price & quality was beyond good and bad. If you want a real Conde, then you can buy this one from the Faustino era; THIS is a Conde what it´s known for: http://www.mundo-flamenco.com/en/gitarren-gebraucht/336-4900-5300-conde-hermanos-media-luna-zypressefichte-1988

In summer and winter Johannes travels through Spain and can bring you a selected model in person.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 21:54:57

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Spain trip (in reply to bernd)

Thanks heaps guys for all the recommendations. I'm well aware of the quality of the new Condes unless you pay an unreasonable amount and that's not what I want either.
I'm very much in market for a used one - 80s or early 90s ideally.

This is the thing: I just don't know where to go if I want to test a whole lot of them out. As we all know thanks to the Conde's-quality-variety I'll never get one unless I play one.

If it seems that this may not be possible and I may have to rely on sources such as Dan Zeff and Mundo-flamenco. Not really ideal since I do want to test drive a whole lot of them.

quote:

I suggest you visit Postigo in Sevilla (his house is where he keeps his nice guitars, not his shop!), and Paquete in Madrid

Thanks for that. I'll look into this.

And as for the courses, Sanlucar obviously is a great option, but I've never heard of Taller flamenco before. I'll do some google searching.

I'm just worried because I really don't want a "foreigner's" experience. I want to be "in it" intensely for the time I'm there. Maybe I just need to gate crash some gypsy parties

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 22:23:58

Morante

Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Spain trip (in reply to avimuno)

"I suggest you visit Postigo in Sevilla (his house is where he keeps his nice guitars, not his shop!)"

If u do this, take a lot of money!!!!!. José charges NY prices.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2013 22:30:43

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

quote:

"I suggest you visit Postigo in Sevilla (his house is where he keeps his nice guitars, not his shop!)"

If u do this, take a lot of money!!!!!. José charges NY prices.

I didn't find that to be true actually... obviously, you're going to pay a lot of money for a concert guitar, but where you can buy a Reyes for USD 25,000 in the States (GSI, Classic Guitars are all in this price range when it comes to Reyes), Postigo has them starting at around € 6,000, and going up to € 15,000. I tried one that he was selling at € 15,000, it was one from the early 80s, definitely the best guitar i have ever played... After negotiating with him, he was willing to drive the price down to €12,500 if I paid cash.
He was also selling some really good Condes for around € 4,000 if I remember correctly.

With the current crisis in Spain, it's easy to bargain, make the most of it!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 11:21:30

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

Por Medio,

Another way for you to get your hands on a good second hand Conde is to try to meet a few professional guitarists... a lot of guitars get sold amongst pros in Spain and it's the best way to get a good guitar at a good price. Two weeks might not be enough for you to do that though, but I think that it's worth a try... Micheles from the Taller does that for example. He mainly focusses on reselling the Sanchis Lopez/Sanchis Carpio, but he does occasionally have some good Condes.

Otherwise, as mentioned above, Johannes at Mundo Flamenco is also ace. He regularly goes to Spain so you can tell him what you're looking for and he'll get it for you.

I totally understand your urge to get a Conde, I think that everyone here has had that.... to be fair though, a good Conde is a great guitar, but they are pretty hard to get your hands on nowadays. There are so many Condes for sale, and most of them are just above average... I've wasted a lot of money in the past because of that, the main problem is that you'll spend a lot of money getting one and you might not recover that money when selling it. So definitely try before buying.

But do also consider other makers... Pedro de Miguel for example makes amazing "Madrid-school" guitars that sound like old Estesos... their concert model goes for € 4,500 which is probably one of the best deal you can get in Spain.
With the kind of money you hope to be able to spend, you could also get your hands on a Marvi (which goes for around € 5,000 - you won't be paying the almost 20% european taxes since you're not from Europe).

There are of course countless other makers who make amazing instruments (some of them are on this Foro) at very affordable prices... I think that we are living in a sort of golden age of guitar making: many makers building great instruments at very reasonable prices... so don't just focus on a Conde, try other makers, even if you end up buying a Conde... trust me, if someone had given me this advise, I would have saved a hell lot of money (and I could have bought that amazing Reyes from Postigo!!).

Suerte!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 12:04:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Spain trip (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

But do also consider other makers... Pedro de Miguel for example makes amazing "Madrid-school" guitars that sound like old Estesos... their concert model goes for € 4,500 which is probably one of the best deal you can get in Spain.

Wow really? I played several Pedro de miguel, not a one anything like conde/esteso.

That mundoflamenco conde looks like a good deal but I think faustino died that year....there are a lot of "faustino's last guitars) from the late 80's. Having said that, I don't feel the 70's era guitars are orders of magnitude better than say 1990-2000 era condes (felipe V). In fact, I can't in good conscience admit that my 73 or others are superior to my 97 or 2000 specifically...in fact maybe the opposite is true, or at least I say they are the same in quality or value. BUT i love the 73 for its vintageness if that makes sense.

I am sure Dan Zeff will accept if you don't like a guitar that you can send it back after some days trying it out.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 14:10:48

Morante

Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Spain trip (in reply to avimuno)

As far as the Madrid school (Ramirez) goes, the best is José Romero, but I doubt if he would have a guitar for sale. Conde is Conde, not really of the Madrid school.

Best bargain at the moment is Jeronimo Perez from Algodonales: for 2,000 you have a great guitar: he has as customers Paco Cepero, Diego Amaya, Jesús Guerrero (Poveda).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 14:48:24

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Spain trip (in reply to Ricardo)

Having visited the Gravina 7 shop several times beginning in the early 1970s, I have serious doubts whether Faustino made some, or even any of the instruments from then onward. He certainly did not make all of the media lunas.

They had some great guitars, some that were so-so, and some really horrid ones. They were all the same high price to foreigners, and they would not hesitate to rip you off with a really bad one if you didn't know what you were doing. I mean BAD: crooked and twisted neck, rough frets, dead sounding...the works.

If you could play some flamenco and keep compas, they would be reasonably honest.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 16:32:03

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

quote:

They were all the same high price to foreigners, and they would not hesitate to rip you

I hate that about some of the shops I've visited... thankfully, with the amount of luthiers providing really nice guitars now, it's harder for them to do that since there is actual competition.

I've visited both Felipe and Mariano Conde's shops the last time I was in Madrid (which was in September)... the funny thing is that the prices started going down when I told each of them that I had tried some nice guitars in the other's shop and that I was hesitating!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 16:46:39

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Spain trip (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

I totally understand your urge to get a Conde, I think that everyone here has had that.... to be fair though, a good Conde is a great guitar, but they are pretty hard to get your hands on nowadays.

Yeah I must admit that certain luck will have to be on my side for me to stumble upon a Conde that I like and is within my price. But one thing is for sure I will not be getting one if the sound isn't up to the scratch. I'll just keep the money.

Although that orange hue is known to make people hear strange things when making purchases...

Just been to Taller flamenco website - it sure looks tempting! And can anyone send me an email address to enquire about Gerardo's course in Sanlucar?

I really appreciate all your advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 18:31:26

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Spain trip (in reply to por medio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: por medio
But one thing is for sure I will not be getting one if the sound isn't up to the scratch. I'll just keep the money.

when I was selling my blanca, I tried out a old early 80s conde that the dealer has for sale for 14500 or something ridiculous. And it was totally dead! seriously the sound was horrible, I rather listen to my 171sf that that..
I always want to buy from none spanish luthiers beacuse of all this talk about them ripping you off with bad guitars or bad sounds..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2013 20:09:15