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I've been investigating this for some time now and felt compelled to join Architects and Engineers 911 Truth. Sorry if this is hurtful to some members but the evidence is overwhelming and an independant investigation is needed. www.ae911truth.org
Actually, there is no substantiated evidence that the US Government was responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center towers. The evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the accepted events: That the jet liners crashed into the Twin Towers, and the heat and flames feeding on themselves and the structural damage caused ever greater damage, which in turn caused the collapse. It is ludicrous to think the US Government was colluding with the Al-Qaeda members who slammed the jet liners into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. I see no convincing evidence (as opposed to speculation) in the AE911Truth reports that would indicate otherwise.
This has been a favorite of conspiracy theorists since the September 11 attacks against the WTC and the Pentagon. People who believe this stuff are known as "Truthers," and they are the equivalent of the "Birthers" who believe Barack Obama was born in Kenya, and that his Hawaiian birth certificate is false. There will always be conspiracy theorists who want to believe such nonsense. The Oliver Stone movie "JFK" is a perfect example. Stone fed into the conspiracy theorists who believe that Kennedy's assassination was the result of a vast conspiracy involving the military, the CIA, and other elements of the US Government. Anyone who has ever worked for the Government knows that if such wide involvement had been the case, it could never have been covered up for the past 50 years. There are a group of fringe conspiracy theorists who believe that the ordinary contrails (condensation trails) that jets leave in the sky are actually chemicals that are being spread for any number of reasons: population control, poison food, etc.
The imagination of conspiracy theorists is limitless.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
the jet liners crashed into the Twin Towers, and the heat and flames feeding on themselves and the structural damage caused ever greater damage, which in turn caused the collapse.
You dont honestly believe in that fairytale do you. No plane even hit building 7, thats fact. C'mon its pretty hard to believe when you hear the facts presented on what is, and what isnt possible when it comes to a building being demolished. And thats coming from a group of engineers and architects not some crackpot left wing group with some communist agenda, lol. They are just looking at the facts and asking for a more thorough investigation, nothing wrong with that. All they are saying is the official report really doesnt add up, based on theyre own research and expertise they arent satisfied at all with the investigation.
You dont honestly believe in that fairytale do you. No plane even hit building 7, thats fact. C'mon its pretty hard to believe when you hear the facts presented on what is, and what isnt possible when it comes to a building being demolished. And thats coming from a group of engineers and architects not some crackpot left wing group with some communist agenda, lol. They are just looking at the facts and asking for a more thorough investigation, nothing wrong with that. All they are saying is the official report really doesnt add up, based on theyre own research and expertise they arent satisfied at all with the investigation.
I know they are not satisfied. No conspiracy theorist is. Donald Trump is not satisfied that Barack Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate is valid either. But plenty of engineers and architects have studied what happened to the World Trade Center towers and are satisfied that the sequence of events I described, and that the official record describes, are exactly what happened.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I don't take either side on this debate though I do think it would be nearly impossible to cover up something like this, here's some things to think about before you just believe that youtube video.
- 24,000 gallons of diesel was stored right under ground floor - Thermite has no unique chemical compound, it's rust and aluminum - Moment frames are designed to resist lateral movement - WTC7 is directly across the street from a building that just collapsed - The building was on fire for hours before collapsing, I feel like any explosive would have reacted before hours of exposure to fire
I've been investigating this for some time now and felt compelled to join Architects and Engineers 911 Truth. Sorry if this is hurtful to some members but the evidence is overwhelming and an independant investigation is needed. www.ae911truth.org
Jim
"joined"????? Jim, I seriously hope you are not so vulnerable. From the site you linked too:
quote:
Do you want to support Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth financially but find yourself a bit short on cash? Creative solutions are at hand! There are many other ways to contribute to our efforts!
Do you have appreciated stocks that would create tax liabilities if you were to sell them?
Do you have tangible assets such as real estate, vehicles, jewelry, rare books, or artwork that you would be willing to give to ensure the success of our vital mission?
It's a money making racket to exploit the weak minded. Since when does "truth" need donations?
Out of curiosity, I have followed a few of the technical arguments regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center and the damage to the Pentagon. From the viewpoint of a 43-year career as physicist, engineer and mathematician, I say the arguments range from the speculative and unsupported to the outright preposterous.
From the standpoint of a 43-year career in the defense and intelligence businesses, I find it unbelievable that such an effort by the govenrment could be concealed.
"The government" is not some monolithic structure under strict control. The elements involved here, the Federal Aviation Agency, the National Institure pf Standards, and the civilian airline industry comprise people from all across the political spectrum, from left to right, from hawkish to pacifist. They span the spectrum from earnest supporters of the Bush administrations's neoconservative policies to the most ardent opponents. Think of the political capital that would accrue to someone who could blow the whistle upon a government plot to kill 3000 innocent citizens.
During my career I held the highest level pf security clearances, plus a variety of intelligence 'tickets' that granted access to 'compartmented' information. To count the number of 'black' projects I was involved in, I would have to go back through an extensive set of diaries. During all 43 years of this career, I was "read into" only one project whose existence was a surprise to me. If it had become public knowledge, it would have revealed a diplomatic relationship that was generally unknown. No immediate benefit would have accrued to anyone breaking the wall of secrecy.
To expand, a Top Secret clearance grants access to a relatively broad range of information. Sensitive "black" projects like the F-117 Stealth Fighter require special background investigations and are limited to a select number of people. Yet I was aware of the existence and general outlines of every black project to which I was granted access, except one. People like to talk. They find ways of conveying information while not violating specific regulations. A fairly accurate scale model of the F-117 Sttealth Fighter was available from Toys 'R Us about a year before a photo was officially released to the public.
The people who developed and tested the Stealth Fighter were the storied but anonymous engineers of the Lockheed Skunk Works. They spent their whole careers working on black projects which revolutionized technology. They were a dedicated elite. But word got out. People like to talk. Information is political capital.
I don't think the U.S.Government is capable of keeping a secret like a 9/11 conspiracy.
I don't think the U.S.Government is capable of keeping a secret like a 9/11 conspiracy.
Like you, Richard, I have held (and continue to hold) a Top Secret clearance, at times with SCI, in a career that has involved Foreign Affairs and National Security. Not only would the various elements of the US Government involved with evaluating the September 11 attacks be incapable of maintaining a hermetically sealed secret if they were responsible for the attacks, there is absolutely no rational reason why the US Government would have engineered the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in the first place. To think otherwise is absurd.
But, of course, to the "Truther" conspiracy theorists, to challenge their assertions of US Government planning and execution of the 9/11 attacks is to confirm in their minds that we are part of the conspiracy to maintain the coverup.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
The History Channel aired a program years ago that put every one of these myths to rest—or so I thought. It’s hard to believe anyone could find this sort of thing credible.
The strength, power, and, yes, the beauty of conspiracy theories lies in the fact that they cannot be refuted--all efforts to refute them are clearly, in the minds of the theorists, just further extensions of the conspiracy. Conspiracy theories are the exact opposite of science. The only way that they go away is when their last believer dies.
True secret societies exist...and conspiracies DO exist and have for ages....but not even one tid bit of secret facts are known by dumb rednecks on the internet. If USA wanted to cover up any thing it would be pretty easy and exactly zero on line sites would have anything remotely related to it. That is why not only is if foolish to believe that crap, it turns out to be POINTLESS even if it were 100% true. Nothing you can do about chemtrails thats for sure!!!! Write your congress men...call your radio station? REally country bumpkins???
I grew up in Southern California during a time when it was an area that had a strong economic base that was focused in avionics and aircraft engineering. My mother had a job at Bourns in Riverside, she was a PC board assembler and made parts for the B-1 bomber. The area I grew up in was full of military pilots, mechanics, and top level engineers who al undoubtedly had high level security clearances, yet as a third grader you could still glean form adult conversations that there were secret things happening.
We all knew about the famous Skunk Works at Lockheed, it was just lore of the aviation world. Several other people in my extended family had top-top level security clearances, one of them was a crash site investigator for experimental aircraft. He once had to go look at an A-11 crash site ( SR-71) he said there was nothing left of it but melted titanium.
Anyway, those worlds are not sealed up as tight as conspiracy theorists like to think. If you grew up around those aviation cultures you would not be paranoid.
The problem is that in the U.S. conspiracy theory has become a multi million (maybe billion) dollar industry as there are AM Radio shows which are syndicated and have millions of listeners which buy into these cockamame ideas. It's basically propaganda designed to make money without taking the listener through a process of logical reasoning to arrive at a conclusion.
The strategies of the producers of these shows is to prey upon peoples fears and feed into paranoia. The embarrassing thing about it is that as a nation we have let our educational standards drop and have mismanaged our educational systems to the point that these buzzards can operate. When I grew up and was in my formative years of school the California educational system was heavy on science; a school boy could handily refute the delusional claims of most conspiracy theory you hear bandied about.
Conspiracy theories abound now and they are the equivalent of superstition and delusion. Some designers of these popular media shows understand that and use them to make money. Which is why I threw a tantrum a few weeks ago and said Americans will say anything to sell anything. My frustration grows as even guitar makers develop "gimicks" and contribute to the world of sorcery by saying anything on the internet.
Everyone is looking in the wrong place for those who know and practice the true dark arts. The real sorcery is right under everyones nose, the writers, film makers, painters, conductors... all top secret levels that need arduous initiation and years of practice time stirring the caldron. Any fool can make up some story about 911, but the creativity is wasted on that which is untrue.
The strategies of the producers of these shows is to prey upon peoples fears and feed into paranoia. The embarrassing thing about it is that as a nation we have let our educational standards drop and have mismanaged our educational systems to the point that these buzzards can operate.
Exactly...I pulled that quote on his site for jim where they are obviously preying on weak minded folks. I know a lot of negativity at US education and all warranted, but....I hangout out with mostly foreign nationals and they have their fair share of idiotic conspiracy theories as well, especially about US gov. I love feeding into it to entertain my evil self.
The US Government engaged in a conspiracy that cuts across various elements, from the State Department, to the Armed Forces, to the 16 various intelligence agencies, to Homeland Security, and everyone has kept mum? Not a chance. Laughable!
We should be afraid, however; we should be very afraid. For unbeknownst to all but a few initiates in today's world, there exists a conspiracy that manipulates all toward the attainment of its evil ends. And it has been in existence and working its malevolent magic, in one form or another, and under one name or another, for centuries. I speak not of the Free Masons, nor of the Knights Templar, although both were influenced and manipulated by the conspiracy at the time, just as we are influenced and manipulated today. Nay, I speak of the...ILLUMINATI. Be afraid, be very afraid. The ILLUMINATI exist.
Cheers,
Bill (from a previous incarnation in Avignon)
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I also get kick out of those who complain about "Big Federal Government" not being effective because one branch does not have consistent policy with another. They go on and on about how one hand does not know what the other hand is doing. Then they maintain that the government is pulling a huge cover up caper.
When you call them on it, they say yes the government is making it appear they are confused and inconsistent to throw all of us off from the fact that they are really puling off a huge conspiracy! This is called The Idiot Fringe.
Ok, that is funny.
Here is what is not funny and shows how horrible and reckless these Truther types really are:
Right after the unspeakable shooting in Sandy Hook in which all those children were killed a "Truther" movement emerged with the intention of showing how this shooting was a government plot to enrage the population to support a ban on assault rifles. That was truly, truly despicable. Websites sprang up with propaganda which purported the Sandy Hook shooting was sanctioned by the government.
I believe these are sick individuals who acted independently for personal gain and out of a narcissistic need to be in public view. If I ever meet someone in a bar who tells he is one of those kinds of truthers, I will take that bastard outside and gut him with my bare hands.
The conspiracy theories are, in itself, wrong i think. But the reason they still exist is because 9/11 paid off so well for the US that even if they didnt fake that attack, they probably thought afterwards "dang it, why didnt we had that idea earlier" being the pretext for 2 wars and providing the moral right to define everybody as terrorist who isnt on par with US interests, are basically the direct effects of 9/11. I remember the paranoia and the spamming of "war on terror" very well in those days in the media. It was awful, as if thats the only problem in the world. And besides, 3k is not much. Military officials can only laugh about such numbers, should be about the amount of dead people in the first week(s) of Iraq or Afghanistan war. A sad day for the victims, but a very successful one for foreign policies department.
Right after the unspeakable shooting in Sandy Hook in which all those children were killed a "Truther" movement emerged with the intention of showing how this shooting was a government plot to enrage the population to support a ban on assault rifles. That was truly, truly despicable. Websites sprang up with propaganda which purported the Sandy Hook shooting was sanctioned by the government.
I believe these are sick individuals who acted independently for personal gain and out of a narcissistic need to be in public view. If I ever meet someone in a bar who tells he is one of those kinds of truthers, I will take that bastard outside and gut him with my bare hands.
It's a tricky subject these days, not so easy duality to deal with. On one hand, sure psychos with guns suck. Guns have one and only one physical purpose to KILL...and thats true and the hippies are correct. But they only focus on that aspect. In that sense they are correct...we need to do away with every gun on earth. But it's a bit unrealistic. There is a second important purpose of a gun...a threat. A threat of death. It can be a deterrant or a manipulation depending. That is where it gets too tricky. I agree, ideally we need to do away with violence. But EVERYBODY has to lay em down. The founding fathers did know better than to do something so stupid. Not to bring out on line debate but this was the original and sound thought:
quote:
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive." --Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).
Now the rest of the unarmed world views USA as war mongers...but it's sort of like, I hate to say it, too bad. It's been written IN to our constitution to be such. At least in defensive terms.
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive." --Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).
Since this isn't the way the constituition is worded a lot of people have disputed this line of reasoning over the years. It is unlikely a levee en masse armed with semi-automatic, assault-style weapons could successfully oppose the US military. A citizen's best defenses against governmental policies are his vote and free speech/expression via the internet. Also, it took over 200 years for the US Supreme Court to rule that the second amendment referred to an individual right.
quote:
…but not even one tid bit of secret facts are known by dumb rednecks on the internet.
Since this isn't the way the constituition is worded a lot of people have disputed this line of reasoning over the years. It is unlikely a levee en masse armed with semi-automatic, assault-style weapons could successfully oppose the US military. A citizen's best defenses against governmental policies are his vote and free speech/expression via the internet. Also, it took over 200 years for the US Supreme Court to rule that the second amendment referred to an individual right.
This is very true. Except the free speech on the internet is not as effective as an actual vote.
Some extreme examples of propaganda that some fringe gun supporters send out on the internet that says you must arm yourself against the government. It has never been a thought to me that US troops would fire on civilians, yet the people that want the most aggressive actions taken in wars overseas are the same ones that seem to want to horde military style weapons to defend them selves against the government.
The core of the debate keeps getting swept aside by fringe groups on either side of this issue via propaganda.
The salient issues are a few basic understandings to be communicated the assault weapon debate.
There is no reasonable calling for total civilian ban on guns. Only fringe groups are advocating for this position. The call is for a ban on assault style weapons with ability to hold large volume magazines. That would make it illegal to sell them in the future. The gun of this type already in the hands of civilians would not be taken from the owners.
Civilians will continue to buy guns legally. The main thrust of the gun restrictions is to make all gun sales subject to back ground checks. Many points of sale for guns at this time are 'cash up front and walk out' with no extensive back ground check. That is what the restrictions are about.
The discourse spins out of control because both sides are gripped with viewing this through a single lens, their own lens. While in reality the compromise should not be that difficult. The reality however is distorted by lobbyists spinning the real issues into propaganda instead of true public dialog.
In my view, getting video cameras and a large ( or small yappy dog) dog would be more of a deterrent to burglars than having a gun. They don't know you have a gun, they know you have a dog or an alarm system. And internet crime is up way higher than home invasions. You'll likely get your identity stolen before your house gets broken into. Last year there were 2 million home invasions and 8 million identity thefts.
I disagree that there's a duality other than the extremist positions on both sides of the gun restriction issues. The extreme positions are not what the majority of the public both pro and anti gun are thinking about.
It is the middle positions of the pro gun folks who do not own guns and the gun owners who want to engage non gun owners in dialog who's opinions are most valid. The extreme positions cover up the fact that there are a lot of people in the middle who are ready to openly talk and debate this, but they get shouted down by the money behind the lobbyists.
I too have security clearance (in the UK) and worked in NYC on passenger profiling shortly after 9/11. Our proposals were indirectly adopted by Homeland Security.
On the theory that 9/11 was self-inflicted to boost defence spending, then the recent news of a US dip in the economy due to a 40% cut in defence would imply that we should expect another tragedy shortly.
The conspiracy theories are, in itself, wrong i think. But the reason they still exist is because 9/11 paid off so well for the US that even if they didnt fake that attack, they probably thought afterwards "dang it, why didnt we had that idea earlier" being the pretext for 2 wars and providing the moral right to define everybody as terrorist who isnt on par with US interests, are basically the direct effects of 9/11. I remember the paranoia and the spamming of "war on terror" very well in those days in the media. It was awful, as if thats the only problem in the world. And besides, 3k is not much. Military officials can only laugh about such numbers, should be about the amount of dead people in the first week(s) of Iraq or Afghanistan war. A sad day for the victims, but a very successful one for foreign policies department.
michael moore was the single most popular american in germany for years. he is barely above the level of the truthers. so you will forgive americans who dont take your opinions very seriously.
nothing better illustrates the danger of these revisionist conspiracy theories than egypt's recent denial of the holocaust (saying the US faked it and relocated 6 million jews to america) on holocaust remembrance day. specifically it was the guy who appoints the editors of the state-run newspapers, hardly a 'fringe' figure.
A percentage of people live in caves, and think the world is flat outside, and everything that happens is manipulated. Well I have news for you folks, and it's not good - You are actually lying in stasis attached to a set of machines, what you see is all computer generated. This is not real.
ORIGINAL: brandoscostumes michael moore was the single most popular american in germany for years. he is barely above the level of the truthers. so you will forgive americans who dont take your opinions very seriously.
My bad, i should have made clear im not Michael Moore, besides that neither of my thoughts are derived from him. And i would refrain from making such connections unless you can really back it up. I would rate people who agree to an opinion only because a group of people has this certain opinion even lower than the "truthers". Its one thing to fail at explaining a thing (like the truthers), but a wholly other dimension not even trying. Lastly, whether person x or a group of persons y agree to an opinion is negligible regarding whether an opinion is true or not. In that context i hope you will forgive ME that i rather stick to the observation that 9/11 boosted US foreign policy by a large amount, especially in MidEast (and still has its effects until today; see the terrorist discussion). Doesnt mean they were involved in the attacks. But it simply paid off beyond imagination.
are you aware of the unimaginable quantities of money european countries, mainly france and germany, the loudest opponents of the war, made by selling saddam hussein weapons all the way until 2003 despite the sanctions? that is the real untold story of the war. this is what bush was talking about when he said you are with us or with the terrorists -- if youre not part of the solution you are part of the problem. europe has always been a complete joke in terms of fighting terrorism even within the country of afghanistan where 99% of the 'coalition' fighting and deaths are from americans, brits, and canadians. for a known terrorist in the 80s and 90s the safest place to be was london. nonchalant attitudes about terrorism from europeans are based on sheer ignorance and resentment about being under US protection and generally incapable and unwilling to act militarily at decisive moments even in their own backyard.
in any case the official position of the US had been to remove saddam hussein since the clinton years. they didnt need 9/11 as a justification and indeed the biggest hole in the truther theory is bush's failure to conclusively connect hussein to the attack, much easier to manufacture than the conspiracy itself.
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