Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay

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bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay

A Gerundino from 2001 is available on ebay at 5350 € in Germany or 6950 US$ worldwide.

I had a Gerundino 1969 and can say, that this guitar does not look like a fake. Although I can´t clearly see the back of the headstock I must say, stamp, etiqueta, plantilla and signature look very real in my eyes.

From Germany: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gerundino-Fernandez-Flamenco-Gitarre-Flamencogitarre-Meistergitarre-Guitar-/170975688423?pt=Gitarren&hash=item27cef1f6e7

worldwide: http://www.ebay.de/itm/GERUNDINO-Fernandez-Flamenco-Blanca-Guitar-Flamenca-/170979202968?pt=Guitar&hash=item27cf279798

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 13:41:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

He retired in 1999, although for some reason the date 1997 sticks in my head as the last year he was building. I think Gonzalez was helping him finish producing guitars (in almeria?)...he finally died in 2006. So a 2001 guitar for sure is not his own work, though, it is not fair to lable it a "fake" , but most likely he didn't work on it at all.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 13:49:50

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

Thx for this interesting info. I am informed by a German friend whose wife is from Almeria in the same place where Gerundino had his workshop, that he still had made a few guitars while retiering. I also know that he was together with another guitar maker. In my remembrance it´s the name of Rodriguez who made headstocks looking a bit like the Gerundino headstock. Maybe I have mismatched the name, so please correct me if I´m wrong. My friend told me around 1999 or 2000 (can´t remember correctly) that Gerundino got seriously injured and his collegue in the workshop helpt him to finish some guitars but not on substancy works.

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 14:15:35

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

There are more photographs then the one shown at first sight. If you scroll down (right of the photo list) you can see a closeup of the headstock. For that prize it might be interesting for a potential buyer to go over there and play it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 15:12:08

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Very nice. That action though looks like it's for a light handed player(2.4-2.8mm).

If someone goes to try it in person it will be 10 percent off the price most likely if it's purchased off ebay.(ebay and paypal take about 13 percent off the price from the seller)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 15:31:39

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

When I went to visit Gerundino in his house in 1993, his workshop was closed, though he still had a small workshop in his attic. I asked him if he would make me a guitar, he said no, I am not taking any more orders, I have only a few guitars upstairs, but they are for professionals and expensive.

He had been lame from birth, due to polio, and was going deaf. His wife Josefa, who had a penetrating voice, repeated all my words to him. We spent a great evening, drinking Don Simon and chatting about flamenco.

Gerundino retired officially in June1996 at 65 years. (According to the newspaper “Andalucía”, he only made 3 guitars in this year). In October, he fell in casa and broke the femur of his bad leg. In November, Josefa died. After such a horrible year, I doubt if he made any more guitars, though there are more myths and self interested lies than real knowledge. He himself calculated that he had made about 1200 guitars.

If anyone really knows the truth, I, for one, would like to know.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 16:36:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Gerundino retired officially in June1996 at 65 years. (According to the newspaper “Andalucía”, he only made 3 guitars in this year). In October, he fell in casa and broke the femur of his bad leg. In November, Josefa died. After such a horrible year, I doubt if he made any more guitars, though there are more myths and self interested lies than real knowledge. He himself calculated that he had made about 1200 guitars.

Well, I guess that would explain why I had 1997 in my head (guitars from BEFORE 97 were his make, then and after NOT.).

I will stand by my first post then that he was not involved in making that 2001 guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 18:13:07

Xavi

Posts: 68
Joined: Jul. 10 2012

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

There are actually two "Gerundinos" for sale on Ebay:

2001 - $6950

1998 - $7950

They may be excellent guitars, of course, but it's very unlikely he built them, although the seller claims the 98 was one of the master's last guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 20:25:55

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Xavi)

I have three, 69, 75 and 98. The 98 is a very fine guitar and I believe it is from Gerundino. I have a dated photograph (1998) with Gerundino in his workshop and an identical guitar, could be the one I have but probably not as I have seen a few from that date with the same rosette. All three guitars have different design details. The earlier two have very fine headstock carvings whereas all the later ones from say mid 80's have a less delicate version. The two earlier guitars also have parallel fan bracing whereas the 98 has a fan pattern, so it's anyone's guess.
Jim

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 20:56:51

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

He retired in 1999, although for some reason the date 1997 sticks in my head as the last year he was building. I think Gonzalez was helping him finish producing guitars (in almeria?)...he finally died in 2006. So a 2001 guitar for sure is not his own work, though, it is not fair to lable it a "fake" , but most likely he didn't work on it at all.

Ricardo

Hi Ricardo, not to contradict you, but only add a few more details to confuse or complete the picture; I found these on the Dan Zeff Website, which have odd dates:
.
Here is a Gerundino [alone] dated 2000 [well beyond the outside date of his retirement 1997]
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/showitem.cfm?id=161&menu=flamenco&type=guitars

And here is a Gerundino [with] Gonzalez dated 2005
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/showitem.cfm?id=219&menu=flamenco&type=guitars

PS.: Hi Jim, always nice to see you and your collection of rare and beautiful instruments.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 17:03:14

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Morante)

quote:

He himself calculated that he had made about 1200 guitars.

Hmm, I wonder about that. Stradivari produced about 1100 instruments, he worked running his shop into his 90's. He had two or three helpers, his sons and one outside of the family for about 50 of the years he ran his shop, plus a house girl to handle domestic work. Usually a prolific guitar maker makes about 600 to 800 instruments by hand with production techniques.

Unless there are whole bunch of Gerundino ukuleles out there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 17:29:25

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to estebanana)

It would appear obvious that if Gonzalez built the later Gerundinos, he did it with the collusion of Gerundino, probably using the plantilla and even the wood and probably the advice of the maestro. The guitars must be good, so unless the labelalone impresses you, they are well worth having.

Having played quite a number of "Gerundinos", I have to say that this is my favourite guitar: I would even place him above Reyes in terms of sound. (In terms of playability, Conde probably wins

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 18:08:02

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

In the biography about Gerundino written by Paco Urrutia, page 100, Gerundino calculated he built aproximately 1200 guitars.
Also one of my former teachers, Eric Vaarzon Morel, says in his biograpfy he bought a Guitar from Gerundino in person in the year 2000.
Not saying that the label says 2000......,

http://www.vaarzonmorel.com/biografie.html

(Eric over zijn gitaren line 10)
(Eric about his guitars, line 10)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 22:16:21

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Stradivari produced about 1100 instruments

Speaking about Stradivarius, the over majority (if not all) violins from his hand are modified by later generations (in other words not 100 % original) so the fact other people might have been involved in finishing those guitars does not necessarily mean they are less interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 22:34:30

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

In the biography about Gerundino written by Paco Urrutia, page 100, Gerundino calculated he built aproximately 1200 guitars.

If he started in 1950 when he was 19 years old and retired in 1999, he would have had to have made 24.5 guitars per year for 49 years to make 1200 guitars. Not impossible, but not likely either. It means he would have made 2 guitars per month for 49 years. By other accounts it's said he produced 10 to 12 instruments per year, which sounds more normal but a bit low. By those estimates he would have made 600 guitars which is no mean feat.

Who knows, I just question it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 1:15:11

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

Speaking about Stradivarius, the over majority (if not all) violins from his hand are modified by later generations (in other words not 100 % original) so the fact other people might have been involved in finishing those guitars does not necessarily mean they are less interesting.

Are you saying that he could have had another person do the finish work? It's totally possible. It would make his work faster, but I still think 1200 is a high estimate. If I owned a Gernundino I would argue for him to have done less output....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 1:18:17

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to estebanana)

I am not a guitar builder, but if you start making 3 guitars every month, and the building time would be 3 months,
......I mean working on a row.......,
after 3 months you have an output of 3 guitars each month, is 36 guitars a year.
If you do that with two guitars, you have 24 guitars a year.
Would that be possible?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 20:22:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

To get to 1200 that's 50 years of serious pumping out, I doubt that.........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 20:27:18

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Leñador)

With building 3 on a row it would make 33 years.

* Also, my spanish is not that good, but his wife helped him very much, (Josefa)

From the book Guitarreros de Andalucia, written by Luis F. Pinar....page 74

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 20:45:11

Marcus McGuinness

Posts: 19
Joined: Jan. 21 2013
From: Málaga province, Spain

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to gerundino63)

"And so those years of shortages passed by in which Gerundino worked day and night in order to put food on the table for his four children. The assistance of Josefa was a vital addition to his constant toil in those lean years, her work turning her into a true guitarmaker in her own right, such that, when she died in 1996, a great part of the professional know-how of Gerundino disappeared with her."

Or something like that.

Mac

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 22:18:22

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Marcus McGuinness)

Gracias Señor!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 22:57:57

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Speaking about Stradivarius, the over majority (if not all) violins from his hand are modified by later generations (in other words not 100 % original) so the fact other people might have been involved in finishing those guitars does not necessarily mean they are less interesting.

Are you saying that he could have had another person do the finish work?

It's typical that the chief of the FBI (of all people) overlooks the clue "later generations". Various docu's i saw about the subject claimed that after he died the later generations somehow changed there mind about how a proper violin should function and at that period of time most violins seem to have modified to "new standards", including most (if not all) Stradivari. The finishing varnish is actually one of the suspects in trying to explain what made his instruments so special.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2013 11:35:22

Nick

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2011

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

Hi Chaps,
On Monday I actually heard the guitar, since I'm learning from the same teacher as the guy selling the guitar and he left it there for the week. The guitar is as described, and sounds very good. I wouldn't say it has the vibe of a '70s Gerundino, nor does it sound quite the same, but given that it wasn't made by the maestro at the top of his game, it's certainly still in the class of "luthier made instruments" (as opposed to being something that's popped out of a factory).
Nick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2013 18:02:34

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to Nick)

Hi Nick,
you checked the guitar on Ebay that I´ve posted above? Are you a German or living in Germany?

Saludos
Bernd

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2013 2:17:04

Nick

Posts: 6
Joined: Jan. 28 2011

RE: Gerundino 2001 auf Ebay (in reply to bernd)

Hi Bernd,
Yes. Englishman in Germany.

Actually, I played it a few weeks ago when it was advertised elsewhere, but didn't buy it because I felt it wouldn't tempt me away from my Barba. Then this week, my teacher was looking after it and played it for just a couple of mins at the end of the lesson. New strings. Certainly sounds pretty good. The chap selling it know's it's been flagged here, but is maybe bashful about posting in English.

Gruß
Nick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2013 13:28:51