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Its funny how so many think a popular tune to be so far beneath any cante. Or that to have a commercial success directly NEGATIVELY affects other arte only because the artist chooses to do both. And futher, money the evil driving force of it all. ONly starving flamenco is good flamenco I guess.
Reminds me of a recent interview with an american rock singer who at one time was a rock star and made an acoustic solo album...he said a close family relative was surprised at the emotive depth of his songs and honestly wondered what the HELL HE of all people had to be depressed about.
One of my all time favorites (despite my dislike of bull fighting) happens to be this recording....it's also the only recording were i have to duck for cover every single time that 12:12 salvo of rasgueado's is fired....(although it might be monkey see, monkey do :-).
I'd replace starving by private. But then privacy could also lead to starveling.
If I remember correctly, Borrico was very reluctant to leave his vicinity. Diego del Gastor refused (?) to be part of the 'star system'. El Zambo entered very late on the pro. arena...
Nowadays these demeanor could be categorized as foolish since fame and recognition are apparently what drive people toward the mass media.
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
I've been watching some "Puro y Jondo" programs this past few days and today I bumped into this one with Paco Cepero. Skip to 33:55, just after he plays a rumba. He says: "Es musical, es otra cosa, no tiene nada que ver con el flamenco."
Also, I've been looking for a video I saw of him a long time ago. He plays and sings a rumba when he was younger in this video. As far as I know, he used to play this a lot back in the day:
As Ricardo said, Paco Cepero always loved rumbas and he is perfectly aware that some aficionados de pura cepa don't really appreciate this facet of his. Cepero said in the video above, he doesn't really care about that. Apart from flamenco, he also likes to play this kind of music and that's what matters to him.
Its funny how so many think a popular tune to be so far beneath any cante. Or that to have a commercial success directly NEGATIVELY affects other arte only because the artist chooses to do both.
Again, you get very personally affected. I dont believe anyone is thinking here. Its just taste. You may like Ceperos rumbas and other rumbas as well all that you want. Its ok..... Noone is saying you´re having a bad taste. Its just personal.
Also, personally I have nothing against flamenco artists doing other things as long as they dont start contaminating flamenco with what else they are doing. (That is another and far more serious problem) Cepero is not doing so and is still one of my top 3 flamenco guitarists just like Caracol is one of my top singers por Fandangos personales etc....
But please dont call these rumbitas flamenco, because its not. And you know it.
But please dont call these rumbitas flamenco, because its not. And you know it.
We had these discussions in the past. 3 iffy forms were sevillanas, rumba and even fandangos. I pointed out there are groups of people that perform one of these 3 forms exclusively that are NOT considered flamenco artists. Then we notice that vast majority of flamenco artists can and do interpret all 3. I think the only one of the 3 that was considered definantly NOT in flamenco family of songs was sevillanas. Sorry I am not gonna go look that up.
So while it can be only a taste issue here, I am sorry but I go on record saying Paco Cepero's Rumbas are in fact 100% flamenco to me. THere are plenty of ida y vuelta not to my taste either and I avoid listening to, but are equally flamenco depending on interpretation. Melchor de Marchena complains of the rumbas everyone was doing in Rito y Geografia and states he prefers deeper slower forms of cante. Matrona says the same thing. Rumba is always been acknowledged as flamenco.... but it seems the old timers warned of it's attractiveness and fact it makes money. So here we are today...nothing has changed.
I just want to say i dont care whether its flamenco or not. There are some great rumbas and some awfully cheesy ones. The fact that something is flamenco or not doesnt mean its good or bad music. Life is WAY too short to put up with bad music, even if its flamenco music. Sometimes you can argue that tastes cannot be discussed, but sometimes you can also argue that certain tastes are a development of others. It depends on the case.
If you ask Anadalucian cantaores, here in Andalucia, (which is the source that I have), they´ll say bueno....... depends. And then they´ll try to avoid the theme. I will do so as well. Basically because the Rumbas that I like are the ones that are often NOT considered flamenco (Like the Rumba gitana that I uploaded) and the ones that I dislike are the ones considered "real art" and so can be qualified as flamenco. In this group, lots of cheesy things like the Cepero thing, Entre dos aguas and other PDL stuff. But thats just my taste. And it may not be very developped.
RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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What's the debate about? I don't get it.
Preening. A few good replies and the rest is peacockery.
Norman, thats the easy standing on the sideline not wanting to be involved answer and as a such is no better than the peacockery answers.
Is it not important to define what flamenco is and what its not? Is everything going to be flamenco, just because a flamenco guitar is used and someone is saying óle? Is it flamenco when a rockband is playing heavy in siguiriya (bulerias, tangos etc) compás and singing ay?
Is it flamenco when a rockband is playing heavy in siguiriya (bulerias, tangos etc) compás and singing ay?
Why is it not? Who are you to say?
The definition of flamenco is always changing, just like how people couldn't stand what Paco was doing in the 70s/80s. That's really where I disagree though, why the hell is it so important to "define" flamenco? Even if flamenco now includes things you don't like, that doesn't stop you at all from listening to the same things that you always liked. The artists you consider flamenco aren't disappearing because other artists you don't consider flamenco have sprung up.
Sorry, I find that kind of mindset really ridiculous. Stagnation is death.
Let me spell it out for you Anders: I'm tired of reading so many bitter and unfortunately worded complaints about Spain, Spaniards, Spanish culture and Spanish society, especially from forum members who live here. I'm tired of seeing disrespectful words used to discredit people and things that the poster doesn't like. It's especially irritating when the poster's written Spanish is always full of mistakes and his observations about Spain are, at best, poorly understood stereotypes. It's the same self-appointed entitlement of the flamencólogos, except the flamencólogos look a whole lot better. You know, the "angry young man" attitude might work for a 20-year-old but it's just kind of pathetic in an adult.
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Is it not important to define what flamenco is and what its not?
No, it's not important, but it seems to make some people feel important.
I'll tell you one thing I've noticed among the best flamencos: humility, discretion and respect for others. When they don't like something they usually don't talk about it, and if they must talk about it, they say "I don't like it," instead of "This is crap."
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But please dont call these rumbitas flamenco, because its not. And you know it.
That was classic: You, the artisan, telling Ricardo, the artist, what is and isn't flamenco. How would you feel if someone challenged your authority in similarly arrogant terms?
Is it flamenco when a rockband is playing heavy in siguiriya (bulerias, tangos etc) compás and singing ay?
Why is it not? Who are you to say?
The definition of flamenco is always changing, just like how people couldn't stand what Paco was doing in the 70s/80s. That's really where I disagree though, why the hell is it so important to "define" flamenco? Even if flamenco now includes things you don't like, that doesn't stop you at all from listening to the same things that you always liked. The artists you consider flamenco aren't disappearing because other artists you don't consider flamenco have sprung up.
Sorry, I find that kind of mindset really ridiculous. Stagnation is death.
Munin, I´m not the one to say and I think what you write is interesting. I dont know if I agree. I have to think about it. There´s something ethnic music. I dont like when it gets to watered out, but on the other side, I dont like when the music police is around all the time. So I´m kind of caught in between if you know what I mean. I think the discussion is very interesting and I dont mind sharp opinions as long as they are not to personal.
RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to NormanKliman)
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Let me spell it out for you Anders: I'm tired of reading so many bitter and unfortunately worded complaints about Spain, Spaniards, Spanish culture and Spanish society, especially from forum members who live here. I'm tired of seeing disrespectful words used to discredit people and things that the poster doesn't like. It's especially irritating when the poster's written Spanish is always full of mistakes and his observations about Spain are, at best, poorly understood stereotypes. It's the same self-appointed entitlement of the flamencólogos, except the flamencólogos look a whole lot better. You know, the "angry young man" attitude might work for a 20-year-old but it's just kind of pathetic in an adult.
quote:
Is it not important to define what flamenco is and what its not?
No, it's not important, but it seems to make some people feel important.
I'll tell you one thing I've noticed among the best flamencos: humility, discretion and respect for others. When they don't like something they usually don't talk about it, and if they must talk about it, they say "I don't like it," instead of "This is crap."
quote:
But please dont call these rumbitas flamenco, because its not. And you know it.
That was classic: You, the artisan, telling Ricardo, the artist, what is and isn't flamenco. How would you feel if someone challenged your authority in similarly arrogant terms?
Ahh, finally it came out Norman. Thank you. I like to know where I have people. That was full of bitter anger. They say its healthy to let it out.
Just 1 question: 1) In your opinion, when is a player an artist and when isnt he an artist and how much artist do you have to be in order to have the right to have an opinion about on this flamenco site? Because according to you, I´m not artist enough to express myself about flamenco music on this flamenco forum... Or is it so, that when you´re an artesan, then you cant be an artist?
And finally.... This with the written spanish, what has it to do with everything. Is your written spanish perfect?
That was full of bitter anger. They say its healthy to let it out.
No, it's reasoned criticism. They say it's even healthier to listen to it.
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Just 1 question: 1) In your opinion, when is a player an artist and when isnt he an artist and how much artist do you have to be in order to have the right to have an opinion about on this flamenco site?
Everyone has the right to say what he or she wants. I'm not saying that anyone has to be gracious, especially angry young men.
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Because according to you, I´m not artist enough to express myself about flamenco music on this flamenco forum...
Did I really say that?
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Or is it so, that when you´re an artesan, then you cant be an artist?
You can be better than everyone else in your own mind, if you want to. Whatever keeps you going. It's clear to me that you're an expert on building guitars and other subjects, but playing flamenco guitar is not one of them.
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And finally.... This with the written spanish, what has it to do with everything.
You said just one question. Obviously, if someone has a poor understanding of the language it's very likely that they don't understand other parts of that society. That's fine, but not when that person tries to speak authoritatively about that society. You know, I've already explained this in my preceding post: It's especially irritating when the poster's written Spanish is always full of mistakes and his observations about Spain are, at best, poorly understood stereotypes. What don't you understand in that sentence?
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Is your written spanish perfect?
I never said it was, and that's not the issue here, unless of course you want to make it an issue. You seem to enjoy asking questions that have nothing to do with the conversation, and you haven't answered the only question in my preceding post.
I never said it was, and that's not the issue here, unless of course you want to make it an issue. You seem to enjoy asking questions that have nothing to do with the conversation.
You were the one starting to write about correct or not correct Spanish. Which I cant se has anything to do with anything.
Besides, the rest of your two last posts are just plain direct insults smeared in a socalled adult language. Thats about as low as it gets, so I´m going to leave it because you´re not worth it and I dont feel like discussing on your low level on an internet forum in English which is your first language and which is my 3rd language. If you feel like insulting me some more, you can continue to do so here on the foro, I will prefer that you do so in Spanish though. It would be more fair.
Eres un esnob de la hostia. ¿Porque no hacer tu propio foro flamenco. Con todos los que valen, los que saben tocar la guitarra flamenco a un nivel que puedes aguantar, con los que no se quejan y sobre todo con los que saben escriber en español sin cometer demasiados errores.
Siempre he procurado rodearme de gente que me caiga bien, además de hablar a las claras a las personas que no me caigan muy bien. Es cosa de adultos. No te preocupes, ya aprenderás. Por cierto, se te ha olvidado un signo de interrogación. Gilipollas.
I'd like to point out that people say "gilipollas" all the time on public television and radio.
Thats a lie Norman and if your level of Spanish is so fantastic as you believe yourself, then you know that I´m right.
Saying gilipollas in public is considered a VERY strong insult. Its like saying idiot in public in English.
Whats wrong with you. You dont even have the guts to accept what you write yourself. Are you afraid? I´m not going to do you anything. You are really such a wellbehaved and adult person. What´s next????
Thats a lie Norman and if your level of Spanish is so fantastic as you believe yourself, then you know that I´m right.
Oh, because you say so? Sorry, but (as I've already said), I hear it on public TV and radio all the time.
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Its like saying idiot in public in English.
Yes, exactly.
I think you're taking this a little too far, Anders. Until that last post of mine, I hadn't "directly insulted" you, as you say, at any point. If you took it that way and if you need to hear it, I'll apologize. But I still think it would make more sense to listen to well reasoned criticism. Your real enemies are never going to give you that.
First you attack in this adult british way, and now, its me taking things to far....... phhhhhhhhh You are really far out man. I dont want your apologizes. give them to someone else.
Nothing is more sick IMO than sleezy indirect british insults. Its sooooooo low and perverted. And i dont know how many things you had to tell me this way in your perfectly adult welbehaved way before you started to be the good guy. Was it because of Admin saying so? If so.... pphhhhhhhhh. Go to mirror and tell yourself what you just told me during the last hour or two. Maybe you´ll like it. I dont.
And if you hear the word Gilipollas on the telly all the time, maybe you should turn it of or stop watching tele5.
Printable Version
I never said it was, and that's not the issue here, unless of course you want to make it an issue. You seem to enjoy asking questions that have nothing to do with the conversation, and you haven't answered the only question in my preceding post. 
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