RE: Paco in Edinburgh

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hubby

Posts: 5
Joined: Oct. 10 2005
From: glasgow, scotland

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ron.M)

have to say that i'm with ron on this one

this was my first flamenco show and i was looking forward to the opportunity to study compas, technique and interaction with the players but i was left pretty cold, lots of technically impressive playing but it never gelled for me.

hubby

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2005 10:53:43

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

I went to see Paco's show in London recently, and it seems he played the exact same set, including Entre Dos Aguas as an encore (which he kept the crowd waiting for ages for), and had his daughter on stage clapping for the last song. I wasn't overwhelmed by his performance and he certainly looked very tired. But to be fair, he did at one point interact with the audience and say "Thank you London, It is always a pleasure" in English. Whether he actually meant that, I'm not sure. Obviously the crowd lapped it up. To be honest though I was just thankful to even get to see Paco play here, as he doesn't visit that often. Guajiras De Lucia would have been nice, but he obviously decided against it. He did play a re-working of Solo Quiero Caminar though (minus pepe).
The Nunez concert in London was excellent, if you like jazzy Flamenco. But it is probably easier for Gerardo, as he is young and actually IN his prime, whereas Paco is fairly old and coming toward the end of his career.

James

PS: Didn't like Paco's bass player either- completely messed up his solo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2005 22:37:59

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

I also saw Paco play in London the night before Edinburgh - for me the magic was definitely there. Of course, as has been noted, part of it is just seeing the man himself.

I wasn't expecting to hear any of his old stuff, so I did go into raptures over Entre dos Aguas - the excitement of hearing something live that you've listened to over and over just can't be denied.

I'd only listened to Cositas Beunas a couple of times before the concert, so that style of flamenco with the strong vocal emphasis as opposed to solo guitar was pretty new to me - but I did find it extremely powerful, so surprising how as soon as you've settled into a rhythm, it then changes with just a skip of a beat.

To me, it was passionate and heartfelt, and each member of the band seemed to enjoy it.

There were a couple of blips with the speakers, but other than that..

Yes £40 was expensive but worth it, in my opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 13:15:27

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

quote:

Yes £40 was expensive but worth it, in my opinion

Yes, indeed. Whether you like his later albums or not, the guy is a legend, and I certainly have no regrets about spending the £40. I would have even payed that just to see him warming up or practising for an hour.

Although to be fair the Nunez concert was only £15, and I felt he gave just as good a show as Paco.

In all honesty many of the people there may not have known whether Paco played well that night, and I would certainly have trouble telling. But if you think he put his heart into it, who am I to dissagree.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 15:20:32

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to JBASHORUN)

I think I would have too! Absolutely - I'm just going on my feelings and the atmosphere I felt, and how the music sounded to me personally. I'm no expert - I wouldn't have a clue whether they played well or not either - technically or otherwise.

I think Juan Martin is playing in London soon, so will be interested to check that out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 15:32:02

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Romanza)

quote:

I think Juan Martin is playing in London soon, so will be interested to check that out.

Its news to me- what venue is he playing at and when?

thanks,

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 16:03:41

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Have a look here:
http://www.flamenco-london.org.uk/events.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 16:11:31

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Romanza)

Thanks for the link Romanza.

At the end of the day, all that matters is what you took away from the concert, and if you enjoyed it then Paco succeeded.

The reason I prefered the Nunez concert was partly because of his showmanship. I think you would have enjoyed that concert. There was one point where there was a gap in the music, and the double bass player used the side of his instrument as a sort of "cajones", tapping away rhythms. The supporting artists at Paco's concert played less of a central role.
At another point in one of Nunez' most famous songs, Nunez played a game with his supporting musicians... taking pauses whilst the others watched him carefully to see when he would resume playing so they could continue too. Nothing so playful at Paco's concert.
Near the end of his concert, Nunez even put down his guitar and swopped places with Carmen Cortes (the dancer). Obviously he is a great guitarist, but not such a good dancer- much to the audience's amusement!

Now if Paco had got up and started dancing at the end, that would really have been worth seeing.

Never the less, I enjoyed both concerts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 16:36:39

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

Sounds fantastic! I'm not familiar with Nunez (I'm pretty new to all this) - will check him out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 17:33:56

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Romanza)

Nunez represents the jazzy side of Flamenco, and some people criticise him for that. His songs are sometimes catchy, and use instruments that are not traditional. If you're looking to get into pure Flamenco, then Nunez will not be your cup of tea, but if you're interested in more modern Flamenco, Nunez is one of the best. many of my friends do not like Flamenco particularly, but for some reason they do like Nunez's music.
If you decide to buy a Nunez CD, I would go for "Andando El Tiempo".

James

PS: welcome to the forum!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 17:50:33

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

I'm fairly open minded! Will definitely check it out. Thanks James.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 18:07:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

I agree with Ron about Nunez, great performer even though he is modern. But what we each get from a performance is very personal. If you get bored or distracted, you miss things in the music. Everytime I have ever seen Nunez (that is ALOT), he delivers 100%. One concert I saw last year was outstanding. But I have argued with people who feel Nunez is a cold player who diplays his technique and nothing more, even who saw the same performance has me! Too bad for them, but everyone looks for different things in a concert, or goes with preconcieved notions.

But in regards to Paco, I don't know what you guys are going on and on about. I saw Paco perform in Feb 2004, many times before that, but this was his BEST I have ever seen. I have the DVD from Germany in May 2004, same music, but he made mistakes all over, not very inspired etc, so I think it really does have more to do with the way Paco plays than the music itself. I think Paco is getting burnt that is all. I mean, there is no jazz band in his Rondena, Minera, Fandangos, bulerias,Alegrias...right? So why were you not moved by those solo pieces Ron? Did you honestly expect him to play Celosa? So if he had an off night, is it fair to say the man will never play good again? I have collected lot's of bootleg concerts of Paco, and I can say when Paco is not in the mood, it is not good, but when he is on fire, it is not to be missed. Regardless of the date (60's-05).

I am too lazy to go through and pull all quotes, but in response to this crap: "paco peeked creatively in the 70's/ no one up loads from Luzia or Cositas.../ Paco not good at jazz compared to the younger guys/ etc.

Look, all this reveals is the tastes of the people making the statements. Paco's peak was in the 70's? Maybe his TECHNIQUE, but creativity? Come on guys. Just because you don't like the stuff since Fuente was recorded, does not mean that is the best he had to offer and went down hill ever since. Fanasia was brilliant, no doubt. But Duende was way more advanced musically. The falsetas in Punta del Faro were way ahead. The tremolo from Doblan companas, I am SURE he played in his last concert, maybe folks were sleeping. Ok, then came Fuente, which musically was not any different or advanced from Duende, same style just new falsetas. Everyone goes bonkers for this one because it is "pure" guitar, no orchestras or whatever. For me, this material and Duende could all be on the same disc. But Almoraima was a lot different, extremely creative and more advanced musically. But the biggest leap IMO was to Solo Quiero Caminar. He started useing dynamics, and his "group", so starting here, the "purists" can't handle it anymore. But this was the BEGGINNING of the modern FLAMENCO guitar stuff. Paco still plays in a similar style to this record. Siroco was more of this style, but no band, just guitar. So again the "purists" can enjoy this more.

Whenever you get into something, that time period sticks with you. For me, Paco's "peak" was in 1991 when he played Nino Curro, La barrossa, and the bulerias "Soniquete" from Zyrab. For ME that is the creative peak. But that is about the time I first heard him and started buying his albums. Luzia is an extentsion of this style, which I welcomed whole heartedly. But he did have a couple of things that moved forward, like the Rondena, Solea, Siguiriyas, very different, more modern. I don't like it as much, but I recognize it as creative and advancing foward. Just because I don't like it as much as Nino curro or whatever, does not mean it is not music evolving in a forward direction.

So when Cositas came out I expected more of the same like Luzia, but was surprised by what I heard. I think that opening bulerias is really different for Paco, different phrasing style and rhythmic expression. Very fresh and insteresting, great playing. I listen to Fantasia all the time, but even more I listen to a few tracks on Cositas. Live he does a medly of the bulerias from Cositas, and for the sake of the singers tone, he altered it a bit. It loses something live IMO because of this, but that is the way it goes. I already noticed how he is changing the music from Cositas in his live show. But if you go to Paco's show expecting or hoping for "Guajiras de Lucia" or "Celosa", well, I don't know what to say to that...

Paco's work expands not just a long time period, but very different stylistic periods. In his concert, it is impossible for him to please EVERY fan. So all I would ask is that he plays whatever he wants, and with feeling, because I already have the cds and videos from old. Flamenco is not supposed to be classical pieces, always the same.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:05:51

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

It's all personal taste and opinion. For me, Fuente IS modern flamenco! The inversions, the stretches at the end of the tarrantas, the swing in the tango, and CEPA! Falsetas starting on 10, the insane inversions and bars. The wicked triplet picados. These elements created a sound that was modern to me. And Almoraima had so many things that had never been on a flamenco guitar record, I'd certainly call it modern. The improv on the end of the solea, the choro in the cantinas, the sevillanas with different tunings. But if you think Caminar was the start because he has a group, well, ok. Who can even agree on what the elements of "modern" are anyway!? For me it has nothing to do with other instruments, it has to do with what's played on the guitar. For example, Sabicas recorded with jazz guitarist Joe Beck.
Funny, I think Paco's technique did improve after Fuente, but for me THAT was his creative peak. Why? The compositions. The tarrantas, the bulerias, the tangos, to me, are all time classics, among the best examples of solos in those forms. BTW, I still really enjoy Siroco, Luzia, and Cositas, but I've got my favs like everyone else. I've seen exactly two Paco concerts -one maybe ten years ago and one last year. I liked last year better. Less group, more Paco. He was on fire in his bulerias.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:45:21

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

But if you go to Paco's show expecting or hoping for "Guajiras de Lucia" or "Celosa", well, I don't know what to say to that...

That would be so great, how can you say that?!
Nino Curro, Barrosa, Guajiaras, Almoraima, Recuerdo a Patino, Chiquito... How could i not want to see the music that i love so much live?

Paco knows that of course, but these are problems which every musican has, because the audience (understandebly) want to hear the songs they like. Ok maybe some people are also happy if he plays anything, but most people would be more happier if he plays the known songs.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:49:51

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to XXX)

quote:

most people would be more happier if he plays the known songs.

Known to who? I think many of the people at the Paco concert I went to were not "hardcore" Flamenco fans, and were happy with Paco's selection of songs. You can't please everyone, and according to some people, "Entre Dos Aguas" IS Paco's most famous song- which he did play.

Personally, I wanted to hear "Punta Umbria", "Guajiras De Lucia" and "Rio Ancho" (yeah, I know, Rio Ancho is just a rumba!). He didn't play any of them, but I still don't regret going.

I thought Nunez' choice of songs was perfect, but then he has only got 2 or 3 albums to choose from, whereas Paco has about 30.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 18:27:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

quote:

CEPA! Falsetas starting on 10, the insane inversions and bars. The wicked triplet picados.

What about El Tempul, Plazuela, and Punta del Faro? Similar things going on musically, contra tiempos etc. He did triplet picados back then. Even Impetu has falsetas starting on 10 etc...Cepa is great no doubt, but stylistically I don't see it as VERY different or better, more advanced than the two records before. Really compare granaina here to the one on Fantasia. Ever notice the minera on Fantasia has the same falseta as in Barrio la Vina? The music here was certainly evolving, but not so much that the falsetas could not replace each other live.

quote:

The improv on the end of the solea, the choro in the cantinas, the sevillanas with different tunings.

The idea to improvise would have been interesting in solea, but he plays the same "improv" on Castro Marin. Those are more like falsetas of solea por bulerias, just played over a repeating chord progression. Yeah, a unique idea. Tiritirtran tran, I don't think of as modern flamenco, chorus or not. The sevillanas is an idea of Sabicas where he played in different tonalities (stop tape to change key) with overdubbed guitars. The only tuning difference was Rondena. The most modern idea for me was the opening bulerias where he had oud, drums and bass, but still, his guitar style was a little different too. Listen to the rasgueado remates, the off beat triplet everytime. But still the dynamics and such, the playing, is not far off from Fuente. I consider his creativity to have gone up from Fuente though.

quote:

But if you think Caminar was the start because he has a group, well, ok. Who can even agree on what the elements of "modern" are anyway!? For me it has nothing to do with other instruments, it has to do with what's played on the guitar.

Well that is just it, it is not ME claiming this because of the band, but because of his playing style. His dynamics and phrasing, rhythmic ideas, rasgueados, etc. Aficionados over look this BECAUSE of his band. His playing today is very different than Fuente and Almoraima, but not really much different than Caminar. (IMO- if I must type it again). So if you hate stuff from Caminar to present, why torchure yourself by going to his concert?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 18:41:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,
I wasn't putting Paco down or anything. He'll always be the guy. I've heard what he's done all my life practically. His tunes go on in my head all the time.
What you are saying is true, about when you first discover someone and that period has a lasting impact on you.
And then that person moves on to other things and doesn't take you with him....
It's just that the melody lines were all "smeary" and he didn't play with that "clear" Paco sound that I've always associated with him...a sound that was always so different from other players.
It just didn't excite me..it was just bland.
Maybe that's what he want's to do now, and good luck to him.

Anyway it was great to see him "live" and I've absolutely no regrets.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 21:07:56

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I mean, there is no jazz band in his Rondena, Minera, Fandangos, bulerias,Alegrias...right?

Not at this concert Ricardo..
He started with a solo Rondeñas...it was OK, but I was a bit surprised at the sound.
Pretty sloppy thumb work for someone like Paco! (unlike Gerardo who started with the same, with crystal-clear playing and built up the mood into some extreme guitar playing!).
The other solo was (I think) a Mineras, but it was played in the same key and basically sounded like a repeat of the Rondeñas.
The rest was basically done with the Jazz Band and the girls except for a few moments when they had to be quiet, so Paco could play a few subdued and muffled jazzy moments himself.

Paco was and still is a hero of mine, but as time catches up on me and I find myself now, at well over 50, I have less and less time for hero worship like I did when I was in my 20's...and basically just go with the performance itself now.
That's why the Gerardo concert will stick with me.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 21:48:49

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

On Octobre 3, one day before his concert in London, Paco came to Munich to give a concert and i was there.
Everything regarding the audio quality was perfect and there wasnt playing mistakes either. It was great to see the legend live, but also a legend changes. I like his older Albums more than the new one. I havent even bought Cositas! Although i dont want to say that there isnt new and good songs. Its just not that inspiring or overwhelming... dont know how to describe...

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 22:22:29

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)

Granted , Punta had a lot of the same technique as Cepa-I just like the music from Cepa more, and maybe that's why that record hit me harder. And I think Cepa steps up the energy level a lot. The level of the playing is part of what makes it new. The sevillanas from Almoraima has a different feel to it than anything before. Downplay the use of the oud? The choro is what was new, not the tri tri tran. It's not like no one recorded an oud or a choro after that -they did and it was called modern. I don't have an issue with your opinion, but I think a lot of people consider that record the start of modern playing. I'm not sure I'd go that far. Torture to see Paco? Not me. re read my post. I like all his stuff, just some more than others. But the whole "flamenco group" thing is not my favorite thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 23:07:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)

quote:

Granted , Punta had a lot of the same technique as Cepa-I just like the music from Cepa more, and maybe that's why that record hit me harder. And I think Cepa steps up the energy level a lot.

Yep, exactly what I was trying to point out, you like it more, it makes a difference, and also, if it is simply played with the extra energy or whatever, it grabs you more, if you are ready to recieve!

Not all my comments about Paco's group and recordings are directed towards you Mark2, more to the general tone of comments in this thread, and aficionados' views in general.

quote:

The other solo was (I think) a Mineras, but it was played in the same key and basically sounded like a repeat of the Rondeñas.

Well Ron ol buddy, I am pretty familiar with these pieces and with all due respect, I think a lot of beautiful things went over your head. And I am sure he played bulerias and alegrias with just cajon and palmas, and morphed the minera into the Fandangos "Montino", etc. I think I am just more of a complete Paco FREAK than you!

Anyway, sorry he did not live up to your expectations amigo. Glad Gerardo blew you away!

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 20:23:09

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

And I am sure he played bulerias and alegrias with just cajon and palmas

He did?
I don't understand how you know these things?....
Were you at the concert in Edinburgh?

Ricardo...I think secretly you are an International spy, pretending you were out on the West Coast of the USA, when in fact you sent your double there to cover for you, so that you could smuggle yourself into Scotland in an attempt to reach Sir Sean himself, to thwart the excesses of Bush/Blair administration, which you now know is in fact a long-term plan and evil scheme of S*M*E*R*S*H.....
Otherwise, how would you have known what Paco played on that night?

"Marlow, he said...the name's Marlow..", taking a cigarette from an engraved gold cigarette case, tapping it twice before lighting it....
The Countess, taken aback by his his immediate impudence and lack of deference, reacted in a way that was both angry but captivating...

The croupier said "Last bets now please, the wheel is spinning, last bets now..."

Marlow, loosening the collar around his neck in his resplendant Saville Row tuxedo and sipping an iced Martini, simply said " Everything on 12....I'm sure this beautiful lady will bring me luck...."

LOL!

(Bit of an "in joke" there...Those of you who don't understand that....Richard and I have known each other a while from the old FT Forum..

)

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 21:23:24